used boat discount ?

[volvopaul]

Hi god luck with your search, buying and looking for a new boat is a very pleasurable time but beware of all the pifalls both with the boat and who you are dealing with.

The are many stories on this forum of who you can and cannot trust.

I'd be dealing with a uk company that has the right boat either abroad or here and get it fully sorted with all your requirements here on uk soil first before it's shipped.

Trying to get repairs and refurbs abroad is costly and secondly a nightmare, engineers like myself in the uk are always being asked to work abroad as reasons speak for themselves.

I'd set yourself a budget, stick to it I'm sure uk builders and dealers will be very nice to you wanting to spend ££££ on a boat that size, buyers like you don't come long every day.

I can give you some leads on who to deal with in th uk who can be trusted with your £££, take today's example, who would have thought nimbus would have faltered , you will no doubt not heard to tales of the past like trader and broom going through, all established companies that have gone bust in recent times who people trusted there hard earned with.
I have to say brooms have turned themselves around and can be admired for resurecting a great product, not sure about the other.

Last year I could have pointed you to a sq58 in Portugal for a price you would not have believed, there are many 58ft plus mainstream uk built boats out there with owners and dealers desperate to sell, many part ex deals are just underwritted byother dealers often at 60p in the pound. I have been trying to sell my boat now or nearly 2 years, I said sell not give away as I want to trade up, there is no point in selling at 60p in the pound to a dealer to have to buy at 100p in the pound from them, after all the same boat still gets you to h same place, the view is exactly the same.

Lastly get full survey and engineer on sea trial, use a uk surveyor who is fully insured incase he misses anything that's going to cost you in the future, good luck.

 

[squadron]

Hi god luck with your search, buying and looking for a new boat is a very pleasurable time but beware of all the pifalls both with the boat and who you are dealing with.

The are many stories on this forum of who you can and cannot trust.

I'd be dealing with a uk company that has the right boat either abroad or here and get it fully sorted with all your requirements here on uk soil first before it's shipped.

Trying to get repairs and refurbs abroad is costly and secondly a nightmare, engineers like myself in the uk are always being asked to work abroad as reasons speak for themselves.

I'd set yourself a budget, stick to it I'm sure uk builders and dealers will be very nice to you wanting to spend ££££ on a boat that size, buyers like you don't come long every day.

I can give you some leads on who to deal with in th uk who can be trusted with your £££, take today's example, who would have thought nimbus would have faltered , you will no doubt not heard to tales of the past like trader and broom going through, all established companies that have gone bust in recent times who people trusted there hard earned with.
I have to say brooms have turned themselves around and can be admired for resurecting a great product, not sure about the other.

Last year I could have pointed you to a sq58 in Portugal for a price you would not have believed, there are many 58ft plus mainstream uk built boats out there with owners and dealers desperate to sell, many part ex deals are just underwritted byother dealers often at 60p in the pound. I have been trying to sell my boat now or nearly 2 years, I said sell not give away as I want to trade up, there is no point in selling at 60p in the pound to a dealer to have to buy at 100p in the pound from them, after all the same boat still gets you to h same place, the view is exactly the same.

Lastly get full survey and engineer on sea trial, use a uk surveyor who is fully insured incase he misses anything that's going to cost you in the future, good luck.

all good advice , thanks volvo paul , but it seems uk boats are even more expensive? if you hear of anything else comming up please drop me pm , thanks again david

 

[stillwaters]

all good advice , thanks volvo paul , but it seems uk boats are even more expensive? if you hear of anything else comming up please drop me pm , thanks again david

OK. You're a cash buyer,you have nothing to px - so negotiate. Everybody else ,the precious few there are anyway,is going to do this and most sellers know this so are unlikely to quote their best price at the outset. Great if you can find a boat that you can get for next to nothing whilst having sufficient confidence that it won't cost you an arm and a leg afterwards. Actually,I've just remembered that most boats do usually cost an arm and a leg to run and maintain,anyway,so maybe better make that 2 arms and legs!
Personally,I always find the old adage is the best thing to remember when laying out a load of money. There are three choices - the cheapest,the dearest OR the best value for money.I certainly know my preference.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

here we go then .

this is a wild card tax not paid , but very little used .

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2002/Princess-61-1881289/Estonia

two squadron 58 s

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...et&currency=GBP&access=Public&listing_id=7448

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2002/Fairline-Squadron-58-2172537/Italy=

the second 58 is not even vat paid. eek.

Interesting. The P61 has better inside accommodation (although you'll be wanting to reupholster it straight away... ) but the Sq58 has the better flybridge, by a country mile.

The two Sq58 listings you've shown in your post are a bit tricky - the expensive one is waaay too expensive, you already know that. But the cheap one is light on important detail - like how many engine hours? And the cheap one has the smaller engine option, which is never good for resale.

Once you've got your shortlist, my suggestion is to start researching those specific models, thoroughly - look in detail at every one that's for sale in your budget, and you'll pretty quickly get a feel for what's well priced, and what's not.

Also, you really to go and have a look/feel for real. For example, about 50m away from where I am sitting (in Port Vauban) there is a very nice Sq58 which you can charter by the day - there's no better way to decide if you like a boat than to go and spend some time on it.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[crazy4557]

The low priced boats are usually desperate sellers.
almost guaranteed they will not have been maintained properly in the last few years.

If you buy a pup which hasnt been serviced you may well need new engines, canopies, upholstery etc etc which could easily bring the cost of the two boats the same with the exception the expensive one is ready to go without hassle..........hopefully.

Daka, I don't agree with your analogy at all. My boats the cheapest V40 on the market in the UK and has a full Volvo main dealer service history apart from the last 2 services carried out by VolvoPaul.
It's priced well below the competition because I want to sell it and move on. Thats why it's the cheapest and hopefully will attract more interest.

Sorry for the thread drift OP

 

[Racingfrank7]

You need to get a feel for the boats and go look at them, the "proper boats" speak to you / for them selfs and the "sheddy boats" also speak to you / stand out a mile!
As for guide price cars, motorbikes, boats, caravans you name it "book price" "bottom book" "top book" "trade" "retail
Is all erelevant ! They are only worth what they are selling for or what somebody will pay for that "minter"
Does that make sense to you ?
So stop stressing ! Get out there enjoy looking at boats and get a feel for them, and I'm sure when you find the right boat at the right price "you will know"
Along with either some very good knowledge or a survey you will be fine.
As for price make a offer because you can all ways go up
But not down !

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

i thought my question was a valid one , but it seems that i hit a nerve with most people replying to my quite innocent question .
not wanting to offend anyone but it seems if this is really how boats are valued then how on earth do you sell them , i thought there may be some kind of guide , a bit like used car guide that could help me establish what a fair price is ? .

david, no it's a perfectly valid question. I've bought and sold quite a few secondhand boats and the variation in prices for the same model amazes me too. People tend to get a bit touchy when discussing boat values because some sellers have an unrealistic opinion of what their boat is worth and take umbrage if somebody suggests they're whistling in the wind. There is no Glass's Guide to used boat values and the volume of boats sold compared to say, cars, is tiny so normal market principles don't really apply. What a boat is worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it at the time it is put on the market and nothing more.
Having said that, IMHO there are some principles you can apply. First, you will have noticed that asking prices for early models of the same boat are much cheaper than prices for later models. For example, a year 2000 version might cost say £200k and a 2007 version of the same boat might cost £300k. At some stage in the future, all versions of that boat will be worth about the same and since boats never increase value, that value is likely to be what the older versions of the boat are worth which in the case above is £200k. Therefore IMHO it is better to buy a particular model from early in it's model cycle rather than from late in it's model cycle in order to minimise depreciation. Even better to buy an early used version of a boat which is still in production and consider selling it before the model stops production.
Secondly, if a boat looks cheap, it is generally for a good reason. Nobody puts a boat on the market and accidentally prices it too low. There is generally a reason why a boat is cheap and that might be the fact that it is ex VAT or the hours are very high or it is ex charter and shabby or it's had extensive repairs due to a grounding or sinking or has unusual engines or for any number of reasons. Like a cheap car, be wary of cheap looking boats. Another reason why sellers might price a boat cheaply is if it has outstanding finance on it and the seller is hoping to move the boat on without settling the outstanding finance, leaving the new owner holding the baby. It is very difficult to find out for sure whether a boat has outstanding finance or other claims on it so ask loads of questions about a boat's provenance and if anything smells a bit dodgy, walk away. Also for this reason, when you do actually buy a boat, take possession of it immediately, move it somewhere else preferably out of the country in which you have bought it and even consider changing the name.
Third, you are a bit more secure buying from a reputable dealer or broker and it's worth paying a little extra for that. Dealer stock boats will tend to be in better condition than private boats. Not always but usually. Dealers may have to respect consumer regulations depending on where they are located and they may offer a warranty of sorts. Good brokers also will not want to damage their reputation selling poor boats.
Fourth always start with a low offer, even if the boat is cheap and ensure the seller knows you're a serious cash buyer. You can always increase your offer if it is rejected but you can never decrease it (until survey and seatrial time but thats another story). Where to start? Personally I start at asking price - 30% and stick to your guns. Only move up reluctantly and in small increments. If ever you get the feeling the seller is being intransigent, walk away. There are plenty of other boats for sale. Ask the seller how long the boat has been for sale; the longer the more likely the seller would be to accept a lower offer

 

[honeybee]

Daka, I don't agree with your analogy at all. My boats the cheapest V40 on the market in the UK and has a full Volvo main dealer service history apart from the last 2 services carried out by VolvoPaul.
It's priced well below the competition because I want to sell it and move on. Thats why it's the cheapest and hopefully will attract more interest.

Sorry for the thread drift OP

Totally agree here, my 2009 bayliner 285 is currently for sale and price £10k to £20k cheaper than others in the uk and in mint condition with only around 30 hours on the engine, serviced twice a year, washed every month, polished twice a year, fenders scrubbed monthly. I have priced my boat to sell because she HAS to be sold due to my fathers redundancy. However, I will not accept offers the price of £59,9995 is the price. The boat is mint and well maintained.

Chris

 

[longjohnsilver]

Totally agree here, my 2009 bayliner 285 is currently for sale and price £10k to £20k cheaper than others in the uk and in mint condition with only around 30 hours on the engine, serviced twice a year, washed every month, polished twice a year, fenders scrubbed monthly. I have priced my boat to sell because she HAS to be sold due to my fathers redundancy. However, I will not accept offers the price of £59,9995 is the price. The boat is mint and well maintained.

Chris

600K for a 28' Bayliner's a bit steep isn't it?

Seriously though I would say that you're unlikely to sell if there's no wriggle room at all; it's psychological, the buyer wants to think he's getting a good deal, which he won't do if he pays the full asking price.

And it is a buyers market.

 

[squadron]

Interesting. The P61 has better inside accommodation (although you'll be wanting to reupholster it straight away... ) but the Sq58 has the better flybridge, by a country mile.

The two Sq58 listings you've shown in your post are a bit tricky - the expensive one is waaay too expensive, you already know that. But the cheap one is light on important detail - like how many engine hours? And the cheap one has the smaller engine option, which is never good for resale.

Once you've got your shortlist, my suggestion is to start researching those specific models, thoroughly - look in detail at every one that's for sale in your budget, and you'll pretty quickly get a feel for what's well priced, and what's not.

Also, you really to go and have a look/feel for real. For example, about 50m away from where I am sitting (in Port Vauban) there is a very nice Sq58 which you can charter by the day - there's no better way to decide if you like a boat than to go and spend some time on it.

Cheers
Jimmy

the p60 is a bit blue inside i must agree , it just seemed really good value ? however its in estonia , not sure if it would be a nightmare as far as the legal documents are concerned , shipping to the med , tax not paid .

as a uk citizen but not resident for tax purposes would i be liable for tax in the eu , or could i just export it to say gibralta or maybe some other eu country where boat tax is only 5% or something? to give it tax paid status.

thanks david

 

[squadron]

OK. You're a cash buyer,you have nothing to px - so negotiate. Everybody else ,the precious few there are anyway,is going to do this and most sellers know this so are unlikely to quote their best price at the outset. Great if you can find a boat that you can get for next to nothing whilst having sufficient confidence that it won't cost you an arm and a leg afterwards. Actually,I've just remembered that most boats do usually cost an arm and a leg to run and maintain,anyway,so maybe better make that 2 arms and legs!
Personally,I always find the old adage is the best thing to remember when laying out a load of money. There are three choices - the cheapest,the dearest OR the best value for money.I certainly know my preference.

vfm , every time .

thanks david

 

[squadron]

You need to get a feel for the boats and go look at them, the "proper boats" speak to you / for them selfs and the "sheddy boats" also speak to you / stand out a mile!
As for guide price cars, motorbikes, boats, caravans you name it "book price" "bottom book" "top book" "trade" "retail
Is all erelevant ! They are only worth what they are selling for or what somebody will pay for that "minter"
Does that make sense to you ?
So stop stressing ! Get out there enjoy looking at boats and get a feel for them, and I'm sure when you find the right boat at the right price "you will know"
Along with either some very good knowledge or a survey you will be fine.
As for price make a offer because you can all ways go up
But not down !

wish i could just go out and look at boats, however there are none in taiwan.

do they do boat shows in asia? although looking at things new always leaves you disappointed when you can only afford the 8 year old version , best not do that..haha.

thanks david

thanks david

 

[squadron]

david, no it's a perfectly valid question. I've bought and sold quite a few secondhand boats and the variation in prices for the same model amazes me too. People tend to get a bit touchy when discussing boat values because some sellers have an unrealistic opinion of what their boat is worth and take umbrage if somebody suggests they're whistling in the wind. There is no Glass's Guide to used boat values and the volume of boats sold compared to say, cars, is tiny so normal market principles don't really apply. What a boat is worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it at the time it is put on the market and nothing more.
Having said that, IMHO there are some principles you can apply. First, you will have noticed that asking prices for early models of the same boat are much cheaper than prices for later models. For example, a year 2000 version might cost say £200k and a 2007 version of the same boat might cost £300k. At some stage in the future, all versions of that boat will be worth about the same and since boats never increase value, that value is likely to be what the older versions of the boat are worth which in the case above is £200k. Therefore IMHO it is better to buy a particular model from early in it's model cycle rather than from late in it's model cycle in order to minimise depreciation. Even better to buy an early used version of a boat which is still in production and consider selling it before the model stops production.
Secondly, if a boat looks cheap, it is generally for a good reason. Nobody puts a boat on the market and accidentally prices it too low. There is generally a reason why a boat is cheap and that might be the fact that it is ex VAT or the hours are very high or it is ex charter and shabby or it's had extensive repairs due to a grounding or sinking or has unusual engines or for any number of reasons. Like a cheap car, be wary of cheap looking boats. Another reason why sellers might price a boat cheaply is if it has outstanding finance on it and the seller is hoping to move the boat on without settling the outstanding finance, leaving the new owner holding the baby. It is very difficult to find out for sure whether a boat has outstanding finance or other claims on it so ask loads of questions about a boat's provenance and if anything smells a bit dodgy, walk away. Also for this reason, when you do actually buy a boat, take possession of it immediately, move it somewhere else preferably out of the country in which you have bought it and even consider changing the name.
Third, you are a bit more secure buying from a reputable dealer or broker and it's worth paying a little extra for that. Dealer stock boats will tend to be in better condition than private boats. Not always but usually. Dealers may have to respect consumer regulations depending on where they are located and they may offer a warranty of sorts. Good brokers also will not want to damage their reputation selling poor boats.
Fourth always start with a low offer, even if the boat is cheap and ensure the seller knows you're a serious cash buyer. You can always increase your offer if it is rejected but you can never decrease it (until survey and seatrial time but thats another story). Where to start? Personally I start at asking price - 30% and stick to your guns. Only move up reluctantly and in small increments. If ever you get the feeling the seller is being intransigent, walk away. There are plenty of other boats for sale. Ask the seller how long the boat has been for sale; the longer the more likely the seller would be to accept a lower offer

thanks mike?is it? you have spent a lot of time and effort thinking about my question and have given me exactly what i was looking for, many many thanks .

david

 

[scoty]

discounts

I am a seller and a potential buyer,,,
People that buy new cars,trucks, aircraft etc a percentage will have problems and not all paid 100 percent for their trouble, nothing is perfect in this world and from coments from some arm chair experts,,,no body would buy anything.

MY present sailing boat which I have owned for over 12 years is reduced by 20%from the surveyors valuation because I want to buy my next boat before a first time buyer comes along before me.

My boat looks low priced but is in good condition and has been re engined, new upholstery etc along with regular maintenance.

 

[squadron]

I am a seller and a potential buyer,,,
People that buy new cars,trucks, aircraft etc a percentage will have problems and not all paid 100 percent for their trouble, nothing is perfect in this world and from coments from some arm chair experts,,,no body would buy anything.

MY present sailing boat which I have owned for over 12 years is reduced by 20%from the surveyors valuation because I want to buy my next boat before a first time buyer comes along before me.

My boat looks low priced but is in good condition and has been re engined, new upholstery etc along with regular maintenance.

sounds like you are living in the real word , good luck with your sale .

thanks david

 

[gjgm]

I dont agree with all Deleted User says, but you will have to start somewhere ! I think it makes sense to recognise that for the deal to go through buyer and seller will have to agree...and that means intransigence by either side scuppers the deal. As I have said elsewhere, you will have your own priorities--perhaps time is one of them, or perhaps money is the priority. What I mean is that you would be very fortunate is everything drops into your lap...you WILL have to make concessions, and digging in your heels may well mean no boat. And sometimes one needs to remember that actually BUYING a boat is the goal!!
Start at 30pct down? I dont know... if you find a boat you want and the price looks right, I am not sure it is likely to drop 30pct. OTOH if it is very overpriced, perhaps 30pct isnt enough! Some people like to salami slice and make incremental offers, others will just move to what they feel is a sensible price and see if both parties are almost there, or not. If not, it is time to move on.
Couple of other points.. you will find that your own behaviour/approach changes with each boat, and for most people it is very difficult to remain stone cold neutral when you find the one you want. Then all the advice and plans and budgets dont seem very important.

 

[DAKA]

Daka, I don't agree with your analogy at all.

No, one ever does !

I did say 'usually' , I'm sure your boat is the best and cheapest on the market and wish you luck selling it soon , the genuine buyers may over look it unless you add a section 'recently reduced as new boat to be delivered soon'.

Its only usually tyre kickers that bother to look at the cheap heaps and then expect them for half price !

 

[oldgit]

Thats us poor buggers at the bottom of the food chain put in our place then

"Its only usually tyre kickers that bother to look at the cheap heaps and then expect them for half price....."



But they are willing and able to buy and are just a important part of the market as the man giving Lombard a DD for the next 10 years !

 

[Thepipdoc]

david, no it's a perfectly valid question. I've bought and sold quite a few secondhand boats and the variation in prices for the same model amazes me too. People tend to get a bit touchy when discussing boat values because some sellers have an unrealistic opinion of what their boat is worth and take umbrage if somebody suggests they're whistling in the wind. There is no Glass's Guide to used boat values and the volume of boats sold compared to say, cars, is tiny so normal market principles don't really apply. What a boat is worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it at the time it is put on the market and nothing more.
Having said that, IMHO there are some principles you can apply. First, you will have noticed that asking prices for early models of the same boat are much cheaper than prices for later models. For example, a year 2000 version might cost say £200k and a 2007 version of the same boat might cost £300k. At some stage in the future, all versions of that boat will be worth about the same and since boats never increase value, that value is likely to be what the older versions of the boat are worth which in the case above is £200k. Therefore IMHO it is better to buy a particular model from early in it's model cycle rather than from late in it's model cycle in order to minimise depreciation. Even better to buy an early used version of a boat which is still in production and consider selling it before the model stops production.
Secondly, if a boat looks cheap, it is generally for a good reason. Nobody puts a boat on the market and accidentally prices it too low. There is generally a reason why a boat is cheap and that might be the fact that it is ex VAT or the hours are very high or it is ex charter and shabby or it's had extensive repairs due to a grounding or sinking or has unusual engines or for any number of reasons. Like a cheap car, be wary of cheap looking boats. Another reason why sellers might price a boat cheaply is if it has outstanding finance on it and the seller is hoping to move the boat on without settling the outstanding finance, leaving the new owner holding the baby. It is very difficult to find out for sure whether a boat has outstanding finance or other claims on it so ask loads of questions about a boat's provenance and if anything smells a bit dodgy, walk away. Also for this reason, when you do actually buy a boat, take possession of it immediately, move it somewhere else preferably out of the country in which you have bought it and even consider changing the name.
Third, you are a bit more secure buying from a reputable dealer or broker and it's worth paying a little extra for that. Dealer stock boats will tend to be in better condition than private boats. Not always but usually. Dealers may have to respect consumer regulations depending on where they are located and they may offer a warranty of sorts. Good brokers also will not want to damage their reputation selling poor boats.
Fourth always start with a low offer, even if the boat is cheap and ensure the seller knows you're a serious cash buyer. You can always increase your offer if it is rejected but you can never decrease it (until survey and seatrial time but thats another story). Where to start? Personally I start at asking price - 30% and stick to your guns. Only move up reluctantly and in small increments. If ever you get the feeling the seller is being intransigent, walk away. There are plenty of other boats for sale. Ask the seller how long the boat has been for sale; the longer the more likely the seller would be to accept a lower offer

I often read a load of cr*p on the forum but the above advise is sound and well thought out.

 

[Solitaire]

sounds like you are living in the real word , good luck with your sale .

thanks david

David, I have sent you a PM