used boat discount ?

[ricky_s]

You also have to take into account how long a boats been on the market.

I have my eye on one which is actually quite well priced but looks like its been for sale for at least a year.

Now that may be because he wont budge on his price at all or may just be because it is a dog.

But there also seems to be loads on for ages because they just look too expensive.

I've recently sold my boat for quite a bit less that a lot are advertised at but it went in days not years!

 

[squadron]

You also have to take into account how long a boats been on the market.

I have my eye on one which is actually quite well priced but looks like its been for sale for at least a year.

Now that may be because he wont budge on his price at all or may just be because it is a dog.

But there also seems to be loads on for ages because they just look too expensive.

I've recently sold my boat for quite a bit less that a lot are advertised at but it went in days not years!

i know what you mean, ah well good luck with the new purchase hope its just good value for money just like your old boat.

 

[Tranona]

the p60 is a bit blue inside i must agree , it just seemed really good value ? however its in estonia , not sure if it would be a nightmare as far as the legal documents are concerned , shipping to the med , tax not paid .

as a uk citizen but not resident for tax purposes would i be liable for tax in the eu , or could i just export it to say gibralta or maybe some other eu country where boat tax is only 5% or something? to give it tax paid status.

thanks david

Given your status and the amount of money involved it would be worth investigating methods of using a tax free boat in the EU. As a non-resident (citizenship is irrelevant) you can get exemption to keep a boat legally in the EU for up to 18 months. In practice this can be easily extended by leaving and re-entering. If the boat is already VAT paid you can't reclaim it, so you will have to look for a boat where the VAT has not been paid (or has been reclaimed by business allowed to reclaim). Inevitably such a boat will be cheaper than tax paid, but not necessarily the whole difference as such boats might have a higher value than non tax paid to certain buyers - like you. When you eventually sell the buyer will have to pay VAT if he "imports" it into the EU. On the other hand if you then become resident in the EU you may be able to import it tax free as personal chattels.

On your budget, the difference in cost due to tax could be well above £50k, so it is well worth getting professional advice on the options that are open to you. A good broker or dealer such as EBY should have the expertise to advise you, and given you are trying to buy from 000's miles away it could be worth paying the broker to find you a boat and deal with the paperwork.

The boat in Estonia would then look much more attractive (assuming the boat is OK), and delivery to the Med is not such a big issue if you go to the professionals to have it done. Indeed it could prove to be an answer to your lack of experience. Doing the trip with a professional skipper and crew would be a great start to learning what it is about.

 

[squadron]

David, I have sent you a PM

ok thanks for that.

 

[squadron]

Given your status and the amount of money involved it would be worth investigating methods of using a tax free boat in the EU. As a non-resident (citizenship is irrelevant) you can get exemption to keep a boat legally in the EU for up to 18 months. In practice this can be easily extended by leaving and re-entering. If the boat is already VAT paid you can't reclaim it, so you will have to look for a boat where the VAT has not been paid (or has been reclaimed by business allowed to reclaim). Inevitably such a boat will be cheaper than tax paid, but not necessarily the whole difference as such boats might have a higher value than non tax paid to certain buyers - like you. When you eventually sell the buyer will have to pay VAT if he "imports" it into the EU. On the other hand if you then become resident in the EU you may be able to import it tax free as personal chattels.

On your budget, the difference in cost due to tax could be well above £50k, so it is well worth getting professional advice on the options that are open to you. A good broker or dealer such as EBY should have the expertise to advise you, and given you are trying to buy from 000's miles away it could be worth paying the broker to find you a boat and deal with the paperwork.

The boat in Estonia would then look much more attractive (assuming the boat is OK), and delivery to the Med is not such a big issue if you go to the professionals to have it done. Indeed it could prove to be an answer to your lack of experience. Doing the trip with a professional skipper and crew would be a great start to learning what it is about.

i thought i would have to pay vat on the purchase price to the vendor 20% in estonia as its an eu country .

i dont think it matters wether you are eu resident or not , the vat is done on the transaction , unless you export it , in that case it is taxed at 0% tax rate , i think , but as usuall i know noooothing as manwell from fawlty towers use to say.

ill wait , someone will arrive shortly and tell me exactly how i can do it , i hope .

thanks david

oh forgot to say, that boat in estonia only has 345 hours on it most of which was done on the dilivery to estonia ,if i then sail it down to the med it will be a boat with 800 hours and i can buy the same boat in the med for the same price tax paid so i dont think thats an option , probably best to ship it .

cheers david

 

[Tranona]

No. Think you will find if you buy it, it is being exported outside the EU so VAT does not have to be paid. You then apply for temporary exemption as a visitor and the Customs gives you a letter to that effect which you show to any other customs in the EU as proof that you do not need to pay. There are some restrictions on the use of the boat, but as I understand your plans they will not affect you. You can read the rule on temporary importation (and returning resident relief) in HMRC VAT Notice No8. Clearly you have to get it right hence the advice to use a professional adviser. Your situation is not unique, so a broker who knows his stuff will know how to do it.

 

[jfm]

here we go then .

this is a wild card tax not paid , but very little used .

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2002/Princess-61-1881289/Estonia

two squadron 58 s

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...et&currency=GBP&access=Public&listing_id=7448

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2002/Fairline-Squadron-58-2172537/Italy=

the second 58 is not even vat paid. eek.

The cheap sq58 genuinely is cheap and wont be around for long if it's not rat infested. It has the 675 engines of which they only built 2 or 3, and that is a big negative on it's price so at £320k it is priced right

The second sq58 is a crazy price. It probably doesn't exist. Brokers stuff ads onto yachtworld to attract punters and if you call to say you are interested they will just go and find one - 210 Sq58s were built and 208 survive afaik, so there are 30 for sale at any one time. The pictures in the ad are not of the boat they claim - the pictures have been grabbed off the net and are of hull #19, a 2003 boat that was the 2003 Libs exhibit and is in Jersey.

You can get a high spec Sq58 in the high £300ks and that is the right price for 2003-4 boats, and it is a great buy at that price (I had 2 of these boats and >1000 hours). 2004 is better model year than 2003 becuase it has bigger hull windows therefore lighter inside

 

[squadron]

No. Think you will find if you buy it, it is being exported outside the EU so VAT does not have to be paid. You then apply for temporary exemption as a visitor and the Customs gives you a letter to that effect which you show to any other customs in the EU as proof that you do not need to pay. There are some restrictions on the use of the boat, but as I understand your plans they will not affect you. You can read the rule on temporary importation (and returning resident relief) in HMRC VAT Notice No8. Clearly you have to get it right hence the advice to use a professional adviser. Your situation is not unique, so a broker who knows his stuff will know how to do it.

that sound great , i will delve into vat notice No8 and see if i can make any sense of it.

thanks a lot tranona

 

[squadron]

The cheap sq58 genuinely is cheap and wont be around for long if it's not rat infested. It has the 675 engines of which they only built 2 or 3, and that is a big negative on it's price so at £320k it is priced right

The second sq58 is a crazy price. It probably doesn't exist. Brokers stuff ads onto yachtworld to attract punters and if you call to say you are interested they will just go and find one - 210 Sq58s were built and 208 survive afaik, so there are 30 for sale at any one time. The pictures in the ad are not of the boat they claim - the pictures have been grabbed off the net and are of hull #19, a 2003 boat that was the 2003 Libs exhibit and is in Jersey.

You can get a high spec Sq58 in the high £300ks and that is the right price for 2003-4 boats, and it is a great buy at that price (I had 2 of these boats and >1000 hours). 2004 is better model year than 2003 becuase it has bigger hull windows therefore lighter inside

i now know why everyone calls you the squadron expert , also reading through some previous threads it seems you have a very good understanding of vat rules, may i be cheeky and ask your opinion on my situation , i am non resident but uk citizen , it has been suggested that i dont have to pay vat to the vendor because my purchase will be classed as an export outside the EU ?.


thanks david

 

[squadron]

No. Think you will find if you buy it, it is being exported outside the EU so VAT does not have to be paid. You then apply for temporary exemption as a visitor and the Customs gives you a letter to that effect which you show to any other customs in the EU as proof that you do not need to pay. There are some restrictions on the use of the boat, but as I understand your plans they will not affect you. You can read the rule on temporary importation (and returning resident relief) in HMRC VAT Notice No8. Clearly you have to get it right hence the advice to use a professional adviser. Your situation is not unique, so a broker who knows his stuff will know how to do it.

well i had a look at vat notice no8, looks like it only applies if i buy a boat from outside the eu tax regime , ie i think Gibralta . then i could do as you say ,however it is not available to me if the boat is simply bought in one eu country and used in another .still not clear on the use of their frazing registered vessel ,can a vessel remain un-registered?
this is my interpretation of the rules ,but like you said a qualified tax adviser is a probably a must.

thanks for the info though

david

 

[Tranona]

Boats are advertised ex VAT for two main reasons. Either they are owned by a VAT registered entity as a business asset (eg a charter boat) so VAT has been reclaimed as an input tax. When the boat is sold in the EU it is a chargeable event just like any other sale. However, if it is sold to another business the VAT can be reclaimed, or if it is sold outside the EU that is not a chargeable event. The location of the boat is in part irrelevant as the new non EU owner (you, or your non EU company) can then apply for temporary imnportation.

The other reason is that the boat could be owned by a non EU entity and be in the EU on temporary importation. Transactions between non EU entities are not chargeable events.

You will need to register the boat somewhere as you won't be able to move around freely without it, but registration is not relevant to tax. You do, however, need to be careful about how much time you spend in the EU (or rather in one state) as you want to avoid being classed as resident. This is particularly important in Spain. If you are mobile, not too difficult to avoid.

The advantage of trying to arrange your affairs so that you can buy a boat free of VAT is that it either reduces your capital outlay or allows you to buy a better boat for the same money. Additionally, when you come to sell if the buyer is in the EU the amount of VAT will be lower, reflecting the depreciation over the time you own it. On the other hand it is not easy to find non VAT paid used boats and you may well find for your budget you can buy one that is VAT paid that suits what you want.

Just as an example I bought my new boat as a charter boat so that I could reclaim VAT while it was used in business. When I finished chartering, I transferred it from the charter company to me personally and paid VAT on its written down value, saving 50% of the VAT. Not an option suitable, or available for everyone, but does give you an idea of the benefits of avoiding or delaying the payment of VAT.

 

[squadron]

Boats are advertised ex VAT for two main reasons. Either they are owned by a VAT registered entity as a business asset (eg a charter boat) so VAT has been reclaimed as an input tax. When the boat is sold in the EU it is a chargeable event just like any other sale. However, if it is sold to another business the VAT can be reclaimed, or if it is sold outside the EU that is not a chargeable event. The location of the boat is in part irrelevant as the new non EU owner (you, or your non EU company) can then apply for temporary imnportation.

The other reason is that the boat could be owned by a non EU entity and be in the EU on temporary importation. Transactions between non EU entities are not chargeable events.

You will need to register the boat somewhere as you won't be able to move around freely without it, but registration is not relevant to tax. You do, however, need to be careful about how much time you spend in the EU (or rather in one state) as you want to avoid being classed as resident. This is particularly important in Spain. If you are mobile, not too difficult to avoid.

The advantage of trying to arrange your affairs so that you can buy a boat free of VAT is that it either reduces your capital outlay or allows you to buy a better boat for the same money. Additionally, when you come to sell if the buyer is in the EU the amount of VAT will be lower, reflecting the depreciation over the time you own it. On the other hand it is not easy to find non VAT paid used boats and you may well find for your budget you can buy one that is VAT paid that suits what you want.

Just as an example I bought my new boat as a charter boat so that I could reclaim VAT while it was used in business. When I finished chartering, I transferred it from the charter company to me personally and paid VAT on its written down value, saving 50% of the VAT. Not an option suitable, or available for everyone, but does give you an idea of the benefits of avoiding or delaying the payment of VAT.

well that clears thing up nicely , thanks , so i can buy in any EU state and becuse i am not eu resident its classed as an export, great news .

also does that mean i can register it in the uk and have a red ensign?

 

[Tranona]

well that clears thing up nicely , thanks , so i can buy in any EU state and becuse i am not eu resident its classed as an export, great news .

also does that mean i can register it in the uk and have a red ensign?

Not on the SSR because you are not UK resident, but on Part 1, yes. The norm would be to have the boat title with an offshore company with a representative in the UK. This is where you need a professional to advise you. Be aware that if a boat is not already on Part 1 you need to have record of good title going back 5 years - incentive to ensure everything is in order. You will also need to ensure it has been removed from any other register, usually the seller's responsibility and often done by the broker.

 

[squadron]

Not on the SSR because you are not UK resident, but on Part 1, yes. The norm would be to have the boat title with an offshore company with a representative in the UK. This is where you need a professional to advise you. Be aware that if a boat is not already on Part 1 you need to have record of good title going back 5 years - incentive to ensure everything is in order. You will also need to ensure it has been removed from any other register, usually the seller's responsibility and often done by the broker.[/QUOTE

thank you, looks like my budget may have gone up a little then.

thanks david

 

[wytco0]

I am finding pricing of boats is a complete minefield with some sellers being unwilling to negotiate at all and some brokers not understanding VAT.

I really wish we were in somewhere like the US where there was a bigger market and more clarity on prices and where both sellers and brokers had a clearer idea of achievable prices.

Some months ago I made an offer on a boat which was flatly turned down by the seller as ridiculous only to see them sell it for less than I offered some months later.

 

[squadron]

I am finding pricing of boats is a complete minefield with some sellers being unwilling to negotiate at all and some brokers not understanding VAT.

I really wish we were in somewhere like the US where there was a bigger market and more clarity on prices and where both sellers and brokers had a clearer idea of achievable prices.

Some months ago I made an offer on a boat which was flatly turned down by the seller as ridiculous only to see them sell it for less than I offered some months later.

well i havent made any offers yet , but i know what you mean . its a minefield for a newbie like me , it also appears that some boats which you may have seen on a brokers website,and may have an interest in, dont even exist ?? go figure that one out .

happy hunting
thanks david

 

[wytco0]

well i havent made any offers yet , but i know what you mean . its a minefield for a newbie like me , it also appears that some boats which you may have seen on a brokers website,and may have an interest in, dont even exist ?? go figure that one out .

happy hunting
thanks david

Yes as far as boats are concerned I am a complete newbie as well, I am glad the offer I made was refused because I later relaised that it wasnt really the boat for me. Although I have only make one firm offer I have also made a couple of exploritory offers, some of them cheeky, all rejected even one that I thought would result in a counter offer that I might accept.

I think a lot of sellers don't realise that the economy is in a mess and that they wont get the prices that they want, the brokers have to work with the sellers and take a cut so if the seller won't drop his price the broker cant go lower either, end result is that a lot of boats are not moving at all.

 

[squadron]

Yes as far as boats are concerned I am a complete newbie as well, I am glad the offer I made was refused because I later relaised that it wasnt really the boat for me. Although I have only make one firm offer I have also made a couple of exploritory offers, some of them cheeky, all rejected even one that I thought would result in a counter offer that I might accept.

I think a lot of sellers don't realise that the economy is in a mess and that they wont get the prices that they want, the brokers have to work with the sellers and take a cut so if the seller won't drop his price the broker cant go lower either, end result is that a lot of boats are not moving at all.

i have an enqiry in at the moment on a princess 61 , the trouble is i am not filled with confidence as the boat is listed on a few brokers websites , and the photos look different ? i think this maybe just a fishing excersize from the brokers to get your interest , i hope not as it looks like extreemly good value , but we shall see .

thanks david