Used a Life Raft in Anger?

[mattonthesea]

Our Life Raft has bitten the dust so we're in the market for a new one. I'm disappointed with the ISO standards as they are little more than an excuse for a tick box basic requirement with kid's toys included! So I wondered what is those in the hive think the standards should be. I'm thinking of what is needed for a period of a few days at most, both in terms of the life raft itself and items within.

Ground rules:

- only those who have used one in anger, or have close connections with one who has.
- if an unusual grab bag item then state that separately.

I'm happy to compile a summary.

Thanks

 

[Daydream believer]

Why do you denegrate the ISO standard. It has, after all, improved LR standards & does give a minimum level that one can rely on to give a level playing field. It is certainly not an excuse for "tick boxing with kid's toys" . The designers have used years of experience to develope these standards. One should take into account the requirement that the LR that it is meant for.I assume that you do not want one for a commercial oil rig where 20 men are going to drop from 20 feet in F12 30 ft seas.
Pleasure LR's are for the private market & are graded as such. Charter ones similarly. ISO standards meat these adequately.
But as for your questions I would suggest that you go to someone like Premium Liferafts & ask for advice.they both sell & rent a range of rafts for domestic, charter & commercial use, so may not have a particular axe to grind

 

[Tranona]

You will wait a very long time to hear from a yachtsman who has direct experience of actually using a liferaft for real. You will though if you look through the reports from the MAIB in the period 2000- 2015 find a small number (barely in double figures) of incidents where rafts were used from a yacht - either in UK waters or UK registered boats. However, you will find very little about the usefulness of the equipment contained in the raft because most rescues happen within a very short time of the raft being deployed. there are, of course reports from individual incidents from around the world, but AFAIK there has never been any systematic collection and analysis of such data. The ISO standards are developed from mostly imagination of what might be useful, although informed by commercial, particularly fishing boat experience. The latter type of craft is far and away the most common to founder and potentially deploy a raft, but there is little specific carryover to yachts. If you look 10 years or so on this forum you will find a number of long threads on the subject and some include a quite detailed analysis I carried out based on the MAIB (and Irish equivalent) reports.

The reality is that liferaft deployment from a cruising yacht is such a rare event (and by observation becoming even more rare) that it is impossible to draw any statistical conclusions, although it is clear that there are some strong themes about the causes of foundering which are bad weather, structural failure or collision. I stress though that the numbers where each cause can be identified as primary are very small. From memory I can only recall one example where the raft was used for any length of time (more than a few hours) where the content of the raft was a significant factor in the outcome. The other significant factor was the high level of failure to deploy or difficulty in deploying and boarding. Much or this however has been improved with better design and higher quality of construction (although maintenance may still be an issue)

 

[mattonthesea]

@Tranona Thanks, I had an inkling this might be the case. I think the post-Fastnet paradigm shift to "Only step UP to the liferaft" has probably been a significant factor in this. A good thing! Min ewas 20 years old and I suspect that newer ones will be that much better designed.

@Daydream believer Sorry, I wasn't so much denigrating but disappointed. I mention kid's toys because I gave the 'paddles' to my nieces to play soft ball with and the whistle was barely louder than my own feeble warble. In future my grab bag will include one of my spare kayaking whistles; with those I can be heard in Wales.

I also appreciate that ISO is not just about accoutrements, although I'm not sure they took years to develop. According to a YM article I read they came out fairly pronto after Fastnet (That's my only source). I will take your advice - thank you - once they open after Easter

 

[jwfrary]

Have a look at you tube sailing uma, they have a play around with their Viking life raft,

I would go Viking

 

[Bristolfashion]

Very good friends of mine had a sinking whilst racing off S coast of Oz. They deployed the raft which went hareing off in the wind, snapped the painter & that was the last they saw of it. They ended up in the water, tethered together with 3 EPIRBS between 5 and were rescued promptly.

 

[Sailingsaves]

What is your budget and cruising area?

I spent time at a liferaft servicing station to conduct research into liferafts.

I have 3 life rafts of over 4 person capacity to study (still packed - a job I may not get around to), 2 single person liferafts for pilots (tiny but very substantial - insulated floor e.g.) and two 8 men liferafts that are open and I studied with a lot of head scratching. A lot of lead was in the drogues; I cut that out just to aid shifting the heavyweights around.

There are so many differences.

They really have to be a last resort after looking at them

As such, painters should not snap, that would mean dyneema painter with foolproof means of securing to boat. Not a knot.

Double tubes should be standard.

Entry inflatable 'ladder' or slide.

Rope to aid righting or to cling onto.

I think high pressure air in carbon fibre (lightweight but strong) bottle's should be used as opposed to co2 (usually metal bottles, heavy, and co2 'cold shock' to liferaft material is then not an issue. It as an option when I visited the service station.

Back up bottle. Not sure if any have any. Some life jackets do in case one bottle fails.

A means of blanking off the relief valve would be good - the ones I have 'played' with have issues with the relief valves.

Canopy - some are tied back halfway to the inflatable 'roof' support so one can jump in and the canopy then simply uses elastic to 'hook' over the top tube.

Insulated floor? Only if high latitudes imho.

LED lighting inside and out.

'windows' for viewing without letting elements in.

Rain catching 'roof' part.

So much depends upon where one cruises.

Southern ocean I would want all of the above plus a double floor (to stop abrasive fish etc rubbing a hole as happened to at least one user (he fixed the hole with ingenuity)

That is before one talks about kit for inside. Bailer most important and safety knife for painter. Plus a pump.

I think the whole design needs a re-think.

There is a reason they cost so much and even then I would want more than they currently offer.

Roger Taylor and the likes who make their boats 'unsinkable' have the right idea imho.

 

[Sailingsaves]

3 mins 14 seconds “bit frosty”

Just about to watch the UMA recommendation

 

[Scillypete]

I had cause to use one almost 14 years ago now, we were lucky it was a brief experience as we stayed with our main vessel as long as we could while it was slowly settling, this also meant we had the opportunity to gather extras in case we would be in the raft for a lengthy period. One thing is for sure they are very small once everyone has stepped in but nobody cared about the standard at the time because it floated and that was good enough

 

[Tranona]

@Tranona Thanks, I had an inkling this might be the case. I think the post-Fastnet paradigm shift to "Only step UP to the liferaft" has probably been a significant factor in this. A good thing! Min ewas 20 years old and I suspect that newer ones will be that much better designed.

You are right - liferafts have improved out of all recognition, prices have tumbled, sales have increased exponentially and number of deployments has plummeted! Great news for manufacturers and service stations.

It is worth giving a bit of time to think about why, with the increase in sailing activity around European coast deployments have fallen and it will lead you back to the 3 causes I identified. Weather forecasts have improved such that a 1979 Fastnet would not be repeated and leisure sailors are able to avoid bad weather; yachts are essentially better designed and less prone to structural failure; AIS and radar have reduced the chances of collisions. Add to that the huge improvement of ship to shore communications and rescue services and it is easy to see why foundering and liferaft deployment are such rare events. In fact one might argue, for most yachtsmen liferafts are a solution waiting for a problem. Other modern developments such as EPIRBs could be seen in the same way.

However, once you go offshore and out of range of VHF and 24 hour lifeboats and helos things change and a liferaft plus EPIRB become far more valuable and a different approach is needed to safety and communication systems. Problem for many is that their thinking on equipment (and boats to an extent) is dominated by the worst case scenario of ocean voyaging (dreaming maybe?). You can see it in ideal boat choices/dreams - you know this design has sailed round the world, how does it cope in a force 9 etc when there is no intention of ever sailing like that. Same with the liferaft. Like yours almost every one sold will sit in its cradle for 20 years with an expensive trip to be serviced every 3 years (or every year if you live in some states) and then be discarded. Not rational is it?

 

[Neeves]

A bit of thread drift.

Users of 'small' life rafts are not restricted to yachts and airmen have also used them. There is a 'club' for airmen who have used inflatable devices, LJs and and LRs and there is a book describing their experiences.

Goldfish Club - Wikipedia

If you want to broaden you r investigation, given the absence of information from yacht owners, it might be an avenue to explore.

My father spent 3 days in a life raft in the North Sea in December, and was a member. The critical feature (different LRs then) was the cold - when rescued they were unable to climb the nets thrown over the side unaided.

Jonathan

 

[rexel235]

What is your budget and cruising area?

I spent time at a liferaft servicing station to conduct research into liferafts.

I have 3 life rafts of over 4 person capacity to study (still packed - a job I may not get around to), 2 single person liferafts for pilots (tiny but very substantial - insulated floor e.g.) and two 8 men liferafts that are open and I studied with a lot of head scratching. A lot of lead was in the drogues; I cut that out just to aid shifting the heavyweights around.

There are so many differences.

They really have to be a last resort after looking at them

As such, painters should not snap, that would mean dyneema painter with foolproof means of securing to boat. Not a knot.

Double tubes should be standard.

Entry inflatable 'ladder' or slide.

Rope to aid righting or to cling onto.

I think high pressure air in carbon fibre (lightweight but strong) bottle's should be used as opposed to co2 (usually metal bottles, heavy, and co2 'cold shock' to liferaft material is then not an issue. It as an option when I visited the service station.

Back up bottle. Not sure if any have any. Some life jackets do in case one bottle fails.

A means of blanking off the relief valve would be good - the ones I have 'played' with have issues with the relief valves.

Canopy - some are tied back halfway to the inflatable 'roof' support so one can jump in and the canopy then simply uses elastic to 'hook' over the top tube.

Insulated floor? Only if high latitudes imho.

LED lighting inside and out.

'windows' for viewing without letting elements in.

Rain catching 'roof' part.

So much depends upon where one cruises.

Southern ocean I would want all of the above plus a double floor (to stop abrasive fish etc rubbing a hole as happened to at least one user (he fixed the hole with ingenuity)

That is before one talks about kit for inside. Bailer most important and safety knife for painter. Plus a pump.

I think the whole design needs a re-think.

There is a reason they cost so much and even then I would want more than they currently offer.

Roger Taylor and the likes who make their boats 'unsinkable' have the right idea imho.

It is not the CO2 but the pressure of the CO2 that causes the "cold shock " expansion will cool the gas , not the gas itself ( think of it as the heat is shared over a small area , then expanding the gas the heat becomes more thinly spread and therefore colder)

 

[mattonthesea]

However, once you go offshore and out of range of VHF and 24 hour lifeboats and helos things change and a liferaft plus EPIRB become far more valuable and a different approach is needed to safety and communication systems. Problem for many is that their thinking on equipment (and boats to an extent) is dominated by the worst case scenario of ocean voyaging (dreaming maybe?). You can see it in ideal boat choices/dreams - you know this design has sailed round the world, how does it cope in a force 9 etc when there is no intention of ever sailing like that.

I thought about this quite a lot before (solo) ocean crossing. I bought a harness because a LJ was only going to prolong my demise if I went overboard! I also kept a short tether.

For the LR, I wondered what conditions would cause the boat to sink that would not also take me with it. Rival 32s are brick sh!thouses; maybe a fire or a fast hole. In some ways I think a couple of large, self-inflating airbags forepeak and stern locker would be more useful!

 

[mattonthesea]

3 mins 14 seconds “bit frosty”

Just about to watch the UMA recommendation

Adventure 19 Quote: "There's an awful lot of junk in here."

I'm impressed with the quality of the Uma vid - I will watch more

 

[Sailingsaves]

It is not the CO2 but the pressure of the CO2 that causes the "cold shock " expansion will cool the gas , not the gas itself ( think of it as the heat is shared over a small area , then expanding the gas the heat becomes more thinly spread and therefore colder)

It is the phase change and the laws of thermodynamics that create the temperature change. You may know what you mean and when you write: "expansion will cool the gas". That is more correct than: "the pressure of the CO2 that causes the "cold shock "; it isn't really anything to do with pressure per se... (except the energy required to exert pressure on the co2 to turn it into a liquid...)

It is straight forward physics; or thermodynamics, a part of physics.

High pressure air in a vessel is a still a gas.

But..

CO2 in a vessel has been compressed to a liquid. As it vaporizes, it has to absorb energy to turn into a gas, the cooling effect comes from there. See layman terms at base of this post. *

That is why I believe high pressure air in lightweight carbon fibre bottles should be standard as opposed to optional. The reduction in weight means the packed raft will be easier to lift too.

That is why co2 fire extinguishes often have anti-frost nozzles:
Value Fire Extinguishers Ltd > Frost Free Safety Co2 Nozzle

"Unlike other types of fire extinguishers, CO2 extinguishers feature a discharge horn as opposed to a hose. ... This is because during operation, the CO2 extinguishing agent causes a standard CO2 horn to frost over. If the horn is held during this time, it can potentially injure the user through freeze burn"

Carbon dioxide (data page) - Wikipedia
Heat of Vaporization of Carbon dioxide from Dortmund Data Bank
Carbon Dioxide - Thermophysical Properties

In layman terms (and not great ones):

* As the liquid CO2 is released into the air, it steals the energy required to convert in the form of heat from the metal cartridge casing, making the CO2 cartridge frigidly cold. In short, as the pressure inside the cartridge decreases, so does the temperature.

Why Do CO2 Cartridges Get So Cold?.

 

[rexel235]

It is the phase change and the laws of thermodynamics that create the temperature change. You may know what you mean and when you write: "expansion will cool the gas". That is more correct than: "the pressure of the CO2 that causes the "cold shock "; it isn't really anything to do with pressure per se... (except the energy required to exert pressure on the co2 to turn it into a liquid...)

It is straight forward physics; or thermodynamics, a part of physics.

High pressure air in a vessel is a still a gas.

But..

CO2 in a vessel has been compressed to a liquid. As it vaporizes, it has to absorb energy to turn into a gas, the cooling effect comes from there. See layman terms at base of this post. *

That is why I believe high pressure air in lightweight carbon fibre bottles should be standard as opposed to optional. The reduction in weight means the packed raft will be easier to lift too.

That is why co2 fire extinguishes often have anti-frost nozzles:
Value Fire Extinguishers Ltd > Frost Free Safety Co2 Nozzle

"Unlike other types of fire extinguishers, CO2 extinguishers feature a discharge horn as opposed to a hose. ... This is because during operation, the CO2 extinguishing agent causes a standard CO2 horn to frost over. If the horn is held during this time, it can potentially injure the user through freeze burn"

Carbon dioxide (data page) - Wikipedia
Heat of Vaporization of Carbon dioxide from Dortmund Data Bank
Carbon Dioxide - Thermophysical Properties

In layman terms (and not great ones):

* As the liquid CO2 is released into the air, it steals the energy required to convert in the form of heat from the metal cartridge casing, making the CO2 cartridge frigidly cold. In short, as the pressure inside the cartridge decreases, so does the temperature.

Why Do CO2 Cartridges Get So Cold?.

I believe we're talking cross purposes here , my terrible phrasing probably didn't help , compressed air will still have this cooling effect , although to a significantly lesser degree . I did a bit of googling and discovered why everything with compressed gas in it is almost always CO2 , it's much more compressible and crucially fairly cheap . Another gas which is more compressible than CO2 is Argon , which is more expensive . Being more compressible I assume means more can be stored in a smaller bottle .

 

[Tranona]

I thought about this quite a lot before (solo) ocean crossing. I bought a harness because a LJ was only going to prolong my demise if I went overboard! I also kept a short tether.

For the LR, I wondered what conditions would cause the boat to sink that would not also take me with it. Rival 32s are brick sh!thouses; maybe a fire or a fast hole. In some ways I think a couple of large, self-inflating airbags forepeak and stern locker would be more useful!

Yes, when you read survivors' accounts the need to abandon ship usually comes after a series of events that leaves plenty of time to get things ready. The catastrophic failures are rare and often after collisions which may be unsurvivable anyway. Also common is using the raft as a staging post for rescue by other vessels or a helo as it easier sometimes to pick up from there - or in the sea than from a rolling around yacht with a mast sticking up out of it. One or two well known survivals like the Baileys and Robertsons were successful because they were able to take their dinghy with them.

On balance, though if you are going far offshore and particularly if on your own a liferaft is sensible with a grab bag including what you think might be useful to take with you - but in reality you will only ever find out if you are right when it happens.

 

[Sailingsaves]

I believe we're talking cross purposes here , my terrible phrasing probably didn't help , compressed air will still have this cooling effect , although to a significantly lesser degree . I did a bit of googling and discovered why everything with compressed gas in it is almost always CO2 , it's much more compressible and crucially fairly cheap . Another gas which is more compressible than CO2 is Argon , which is more expensive . Being more compressible I assume means more can be stored in a smaller bottle .

Interesting, thanks; amazing how cost dictates how a product is developed.

I imagine the high pressure air bottles would cost a lot more than co2 bottles in life rafts, but their benefits would be worth it if one had deep enough pockets I think. I would not like to be knocked on the head with a co2 bottle; they are very heavy (relatively speaking).

Cheers

 

[grumpy_o_g]

A bit of thread drift.

Users of 'small' life rafts are not restricted to yachts and airmen have also used them. There is a 'club' for airmen who have used inflatable devices, LJs and and LRs and there is a book describing their experiences.

Goldfish Club - Wikipedia

If you want to broaden you r investigation, given the absence of information from yacht owners, it might be an avenue to explore.

My father spent 3 days in a life raft in the North Sea in December, and was a member. The critical feature (different LRs then) was the cold - when rescued they were unable to climb the nets thrown over the side unaided.

Jonathan

I've never used a liferaft in anger but played around with a few whilst in the RAF (SAR crews are always looking for idiots dumb enough volounteers to jump in the oggin and be rescued. On the basis of my experience I would try and find some reliability stats an then focus pretty much entirely on how easy it is to get into the thing from the water. You can change the contents when repacking to an extent or try and supplement with a grab bag but I will never forgot how difficult it was for even a fit young person wearing an immersion suit to get into a liferaft in any kind of sea.

 

[penfold]

I've never used a liferaft in anger but played around with a few whilst in the RAF (SAR crews are always looking for idiots dumb enough volounteers to jump in the oggin and be rescued. On the basis of my experience I would try and find some reliability stats an then focus pretty much entirely on how easy it is to get into the thing from the water. You can change the contents when repacking to an extent or try and supplement with a grab bag but I will never forgot how difficult it was for even a fit young person wearing an immersion suit to get into a liferaft in any kind of sea.

Seconded; liferaft training is an occupational hazard for a bilge dweller and righting the things and embarking in a swimming pool is hard enough, I don't fancy doing it in the North Sea.