Urgent help required on an important safety matter

Rule 27 of the "Col Regs"

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(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in sub-paragraphs (b) (i), (ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition, when an obstruction exists, exhibit:
(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass;
(iii) when at anchor, the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.
(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited:
(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
(ii) <span style="color:red">a rigid replica of the International Code flag “A” not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.</span>

(f) A vessel engaged in mine-clearance operations shall in addition to the lights prescribed for a power-driven vessel in Rule 23 or to the lights or shape prescribed for a vessel at anchor in Rule 30 as appropriate, exhibit three all-round green lights or three balls. One of these lights or shapes shall be exhibited near the foremast head and one at each end of the fore yard. These lights or shapes indicate that it is dangerous for another vessel to approach within 1000 metres of the mine clearance vessel.

(g) Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, <span style="color:red">except those engaged in diving operations</span> , shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

(h) The signals prescribed in this Rule are not signals of vessels in distress and requiring assistance.
Such signals are contained in Annex IV to these Regulations.

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Please note "a rigid replica of the International Code flag “A” not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility"

Does your flag comply with the "Col Regs"?
Having been in the situation myself numerous times I can sympathise with your frustration however a fabric flag cannot be seen from up wind or down wind. Racing towards another boat to warn them off could be as dangerous for the divers (IMHO) as you have "left station" and could hit a "stray" diver surfacing.

The group I dived with would put 2 or even 3 cover boats in. one as a "chase boat" (if needed) while the other one or two covered the dive teams and stayed "on station" ready to pick up the dive teams as they surfaced.

Dive planning is also important. To have the dive teams spread out to all points of the compass is asking for problems as the cover boats cannot possibly cover such a large area.

It is very difficult to tell if a boat is fishing or actually has divers down so unless your Flag "A" is clearly visable "all round" you should expect "unwelcome company" although I agree there are some who would not know what the flag (replica) meant even if they could see it.

My 2p worth
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hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>
 
Fully agree with you Mitch that a little more common sense /courtesy would resolve the whole issue.I tend to give other boats as wide a berth as possible whatever they are doing .Why people insist on getting into close quarters situations on an empty sea allways amazes me.

I disagree with you though that a rigid flag is not practical on a 6 m rib. With a bit of ingenuity you could design something that stows flat and could be quickly assembled at the dive site.

Anyway mate if this thread raises awareness of divers vulnerability then it has been worthwhile.
 
gosh what have i started!!!! at least it's got a few people talking about the subject so I geuss it's working.

I make sure my "cloth" dive flag is streaming behind the boat whenever another vessel in in the area......surely this is the same a displaying a rigid flag?
If there are other vessels nearby I "circle" my divers ensuring the flag is visible to all sea users, so yes I make efforts to make the flag visible.
When in the vicinty of divers I never "race" unless I am way out of the area and trying to making contact with another boat who may cause harm to my friends!
And finally my divers never go to all points of the compass because unless they are drifting with the cureent the are given strict instructions which direction to swim! ie we plan the dive then dive the plan!

Again thanks for your comments and taking the time to think about the subject.
 
I had a solid "A" even in a gemini (about half the size of most dive ribs), so I dont see what the problem is on flying one.

The combination of not flying the correct sized flag, and other dive boats flying their flags even when not diving iis the fundamental cause of your problems.

Yes we need to educate the normal boating public, but we also need to educate the skippers of the dive boats - who ought to know better.
 
You have recognised a problem and various solutions have been put forward, together with the shortcomings of the existing warnings carried.

Would one of these be more appropriate and effective than shouting at the top of your voice? Battery powered and incorporating a siren audible at 0.5km to 0.7km
037041.jpg


A flag was once deemed appropriate to give warning of approaching motor vehicles but has long been superseded by more modern means. Sound and various lights. They seem more appropriate warnings for today's marine use also. Presumably you already carry radio but there have been complaints in earlier years on this board that radio warnings and interposing boats between divers and approaching vessels is ineffective.
 
Absolutley,
But the fact remains that regardless of what flag is shown, all vessels should take care when in the vicinity of others, whether on or under the water. Even if it that means slowing or altering course for a short while to keep everyone safe.

I thought my large "cloth" flag was visible enough, especially when streaming from A frame of the RIB. Next time we are out I'll show a "rigid" flag as an experiment......
 
[ QUOTE ]
You have recognised a problem and various solutions have been put forward, together with the shortcomings of the existing warnings carried.

Would one of these be more appropriate and effective than shouting at the top of your voice? Battery powered and incorporating a siren audible at 0.5km to 0.7km
037041.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

Cor that looks great!!!! Is is waterproof? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Have to admit some years ago in my prevous boat I remember sailing too close once. Typical story - nice day, nice breeze, sailing almost silently along and as a result not paying enough attention.If I'd have concentrated properly I would have seen the blue & white flag although it was rather small - do agree that a beep on a foghorn might have alerted me.I did apologise but was rather aware that I could have done someone serious damage.
 
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Again thanks for your comments and taking the time to think about the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]Not much thinking involved really - been in the situation many, many times over the last 35 years and never "lost" a diver, well not by accident anyway /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif one or two needed a little lesson in their own mortality and the power of mother nature...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It really is a difficult one to resolve but follow col regs - a cloth flag is not visible from all round unfortunately - I do not know how a court of inquiry would react to your failure to adhere to col regs should the worst happen or even how much liability would be placed on you - maybe none, maybe a lot. I don't think anyone could reasonably fault the rest of your marshaling - it seems pretty solid IMHO with the dive teams sticking together or at least all heading in one direction and "plan the dive - dive the plan". The old "plan the dive - dive the plan" has saved more than a few from "incidents" in my experience.

As for catching the attention of boats straying too close.... try to avoid busy areas is a good start or at least two cover boats (good idea from a breakdown situation as well)

If you ever do come up with an idiot proof solution do let everyone know /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but I fear the best you can achieve is keep a watchful eye out and try to educate the odd idiot that comes along.

I always feel safer under the water - not so many idiots there as there are when bobbing about on the surface /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
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hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>
 
[ QUOTE ]
Not much thinking involved really - been in the situation many, many times over the last 35 years and never "lost" a diver, well not by accident anyway /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif one or two needed a little lesson in their own mortality and the power of mother nature...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


If you ever do come up with an idiot proof solution do let everyone know /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but I fear the best you can achieve is keep a watchful eye out and try to educate the odd idiot that comes along.

I always feel safer under the water - not so many idiots there as there are when bobbing about on the surface /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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Thankfully never lost one either (only on purpose to teach them a lesson for untimely comments about a rough ride to the dive site!!)
As for feeling safer u/water, oh yes!! But it gets scary sometimes when you see newly qualified divers going beyond their limits... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Mitch.
Its obvious you have recognised a serious problem, and you have had lots of advice from the forum on ways to help make things safer.
My advice to you now would be to take on board what is been said, act on it and do everything in your power to make it clear to other boats what you are doing, whatever it takes, as remember the onus is on you to ensure their safety,( your divers) and if you are satisfied that you have done everything possible then you wont feel guilty if one of them gets minced by another boats prop, also you would have a sound argument the offending skipper in a court case, if you can show that you have done everything possible to notify other boats what you ere engaged in.
 
Thanks for the advice,
all the other posts sorted and filed as appropriate!
I'm satisfied my current/future actions will prevent my divers getting hurt, hopefully this thread will help me acheive this!
 
Used to be a rib in the Abersoch area with "Diver Rescue". "A" frame with antenna all over it, "a" flag etc, used to dash up and down, everybody used to laugh at them, self important so and so's. Are you sure that you are not guilty of using emotive self justifiction for your actions? Who was the judge of whether they were going to turn your "chums" into "chum" and why use such emotive words anyway?
By the way I learned to dive using twin hose rigs many years ago and soon learned not to dive in areas where there was lots of traffic.
Stu
 
[ QUOTE ]
By the way I learned to dive using twin hose rigs many years ago

[/ QUOTE ]Magic things they are as well - I still have mine - very comfortable to use. Aye, the good old days when men were men and the seals were nervous. No such thing as day-glo colour coordinated suits and jackets. Black rubber suit and maybe an orange life jacket or if really posh (and well off) a "Fenzy" - Dive computers? RN tables and maybe a "slate" and chinagraph pencil.... Ah the memories..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>
 
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