Urgent help required on an important safety matter

mitchc

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Finally a break in the weather allowed me and some friends to go out and enjoy some diving.

As I quite enjoy sitting in the sun relaxing whilst my mates go diving, I was skipper of our 6mtrs bright orange RIB for the weekend. It’s usually a nice and peaceful once all the noisy divers have submerged, and hence very relaxing.

Not this weekend though!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Despite flying this flag:
AlphaDive_Flag1.gif
: Diving operations are indicated by flying one of two nationally recognized "Diver Down" flags, or navigation lights if at night. Either signifies a danger area. Stay well clear of diving operations because divers can easily stray from the diving vessel. The key point indicated by this flag is the vessel is restricted in the ability to manoeuvre.

I had to put the RIB in the way of at least six boats, both power and sail to prevent them running over my divers. All our divers use orange or red surface marker “sausages”.

This may get boring but I’d like anyone who reads this to take note of the following:

BBC Accident report
MCA accindent report Scary huh?

Two incidents at the weekend stand out and the stupidity of the skippers take some believing: first green and white sail boat using engine power only got to within two boats lengths before my shouting got his attention. He turned away, without any sign of apology! I asked/shouted if he knew what the dive flag meant, he ignored me. I shouted if he would like to apologise; he raised his hand a few inches and continued on his way!!!!

Second incident: Big aluminium catamaran, which unfortunately appeared to be a dive charter boat. Speed probably 20knts, with huge wake (would have made a great photo!) Despite me waving and putting the RIB in his way, the boat made only small changes of course and didn’t reduce speed. His passengers were waving at him to change course. He eventually passed within 25mtrs of one of my diving pairs, who were only 3 mtrs below the surface completing their decompression stops!
Unfortunately I was too busy trying to avoid being rammed to make note of the boat name, even though it wasn't very clearly marked on the hull! When I find out it will be reported to the MCA
Surely if a boat is in your path waving and shouting you'd slow down to check what's up.....wouldn't you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Can you mention this to all your boating friends, if it stops once diver getting turned in fish food, it'll be worth it!

Thanks
Mitch
(sorry about the multiple posting!)
 

graham

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Scary stuff indeed. I am allways surprised that dive boats dont carry a large sign with "Divers Down Keep Clear" in the largest possible lettering.

There are two problems with Flag Alpha Firstly not everyone knows what it is (I know they should) Secondly if the flag is fluttering in the wind any vessel approaching from up or downwind is looking at the flag end on.

If I was a dive skipper I would have in addition to the flag a large rigid plywood "flag" that could be held up at the angle best visible to an approaching boat.Also the sign I mentioned before.

You cant win against complete idiots but I think a lot of Dive boat skippers could do m ore than they do to make themselves obvious.
 

savageseadog

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To be fair to everyone there are so many boats fishing and at anchor or drifting for whatever reasons that it's very easy to overlook an "A" flag. There are also any number of reasons why a flag would't be seen, including streaming in the wind lighting angle, size of flag relative to boat etc etc. I've come across divers with tiny floats in the middle of very restricted fairways, if I hadn't been a diver once myself I wouldn't have realised.
I reckon the onus is on the divers/dive boat skippers to ensure absolutely the safety of those in the water and I feel that not enough care is taken by some.
 

Pye_End

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My experience is similar to the other posters.

There are so many fishing boats bobbing around that the first assumption when seeing a vessel of this size is that it is also fishing.

Of the 2 or 3 dive boats that I have come across I have got closer than I would have wished, simply because the flags have either been far too small, and/or fluttering in the breeze.

There will also be a group of people who do not know what the flag is anyway, but if you don't pick it up in the first place it is irrelevant!
 

shmoo

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I agree the flags are often small and limp (where have I heard that before)

Would flashing an "A" at threatening boats with a lamp work, I wonder?
 

KenMcCulloch

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A very alarming story.
However.
I have lost count of the number of times I have seen boats taking divers to a dive site, or even lying in harbour with no one aboard, but still flying an 'A' flag. It's a bit like the fishing boats with daymarks permanently rigged, in that it brings doubt and uncertainty into the equation. Is she really engaged in diving operations or is this just another boat with 'A' as a permanent decoration.

I'm not suggesting that divers 'have only themselves to blame' if something goes wrong but correct use of the signal is as important as a correct response. I know the seas are crawling with poorly-trained, inattentive and inconsiderate skippers and we should all be on the look out for them. Maybe equipping dive boats with cannons is the answer.
 

Lakesailor

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I noticed on "Coast" the other night the professional dive boat taking the presenters out to a dive had the Dive Flag flying as he left port.

The idea of flashing an A at an approaching boat is a bit whimsical. Apart from the fact the flashing light may alert the skipper I shouldn't think many people know or remember Morse.
 

st599

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[ QUOTE ]
Secondly if the flag is fluttering in the wind any vessel approaching from up or downwind is looking at the flag end on.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you read colregs, the required device is a solid representation of flag alpha, viewable through 360 degrees. Not a limp polyester rag.
 

mitchc

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but surely if you saw someone waving and putting their boat in front of yours you'd think something was up? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
or maybe you'd just ram them instead?
don't the colregs say if a collision is possible both skippers should be ready to take action......
 

Bajansailor

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Might it help if dive boats also flew the 'other' dive flag - a bright red flag with a white diagonal stripe - this might 'stand out' more than the 'A' flag?
This is usually the only flag that dive boats out here in the Windies fly, and it is well recognised here, never mind that it does not seem to be recognised in the Collision Regs as such.
 

graham

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[ QUOTE ]
but surely if you saw someone waving and putting their boat in front of yours you'd think something was up?


[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldnt have to guess what that "something" is though.

Personally I think you have equipped your boat with the minimum you thought you could get away with .If the flag is streaming aft as you motor directly toward the approaching boat they wont see it. You could be a fisherman waving them away from your pots.Which dont require such a wide berth.
 

mitchc

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[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldnt have to guess what that "something" is though.

Personally I think you have equipped your boat with the minimum you thought you could get away with .If the flag is streaming aft as you motor directly toward the approaching boat they wont see it. You could be a fisherman waving them away from your pots.Which dont require such a wide berth.

[/ QUOTE ]
Graham,
How many fisherman have you seen in a bright orange RIB moving the boat ACROSS the path of another with a flag streaming aft, waving and shouting at the top of their voice trying to prevent a friend getting turning into shark chum by the approaching boat? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

what else do you suggest i do to get the attention of the other boat?
 

Aja

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But

Number of times I've seen dive boats flying 'A' moving at 8+ knots....

Poor divers must be out of breath trying to keep up....!!!

Donald
 

graham

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Shouting is pointless over 2 lots of engine noise. I agree that anyone who steams past someone waving at them from a rib is obviously either not looking or plain stupid.BUT it would help if you guys used rigid "flags" visible from all angles and personally I would use the sign I described earlier. I would also take photos and record nam es of idiots for reporting to the MCA.

A fluttering or limp flag is next to useless especially as some skippers fly them all the time wether divers down or not.
 

mitchc

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Re: But

[ QUOTE ]
Number of times I've seen dive boats flying 'A' moving at 8+ knots....

Poor divers must be out of breath trying to keep up....!!!

Donald

[/ QUOTE ]
keeps em fit though!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
seriously though i see that all the time too!
remember also that on a "drift dive" the divers can move at different speeds through the water, so the support boat may have to "cruise" around keeping an eye on his divers....
 

Lizzie_B

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Yes, but out of some 20+ dive boats I saw leaving Seahouses a couple of weekends back, only one of them had such a device. The rest were the limp polyester variety of varying sizes, one or two of which were so dirty and worn you would have to be on board the boat to be able to make out what it was.
 

mitchc

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[ QUOTE ]
Shouting is pointless over 2 lots of engine noise. I agree that anyone who steams past someone waving at them from a rib is obviously either not looking or plain stupid.BUT it would help if you guys used rigid "flags" visible from all angles and personally I would use the sign I described earlier. I would also take photos and record nam es of idiots for reporting to the MCA.

A fluttering or limp flag is next to useless especially as some skippers fly them all the time wether divers down or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
agree shouting is usually pointless but it makes me feel better!
rigid flag is not practiacl on a "small" rib, but surely a streaming flag displayed by a boat moving across your track does the same thing? and if boaters ignore the "official" flag, are they going to take note of a little used unknown flag?
Agree about the taking name of boats, but that'll only work for registered boats.

What I think is really needed is a little courtesy and common sense from skippers.....it's a big sea out there, the difference a small course change could make is enormous. Especially if you're the one with potetially a propeller through the head!

Thanks for your comments and support. I'll try not to shout at you next time....
 

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