Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple post

Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

Flags can be difficult to make out, and as others have noted the use of flags whilst the boat is on route is not helpful.

As a diver and skipper they can be difficult to identify, the colregs are there to set minimum standards for safety and a flag is not good enough. 1m is also a minimum, so bigger is better.

If I (as a diver) see a stationery rib, I'll look closely, it could be there for at least four reasons. Fishing, picking up wakeboarder skier, broken down or acting as dive boat. With other traffic around you may only look closely for 5 seconds at a time and can miss the flag quite easily as it flutters or the boat turns.

I won't dive from a boat that just has a flag, and in a crowded area... most of the UK South Coast in Summer months I'd want as big a board as you could fit on the boat.

You have brought up a very good point, and there is some education needed.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

i apologise for my blunt reply but as you say it is geographical. In my area there is virtually no sport diving as a result when on passage through places where diving is common I am much less aware than locals would be.

you cant rely on local knowledge an unmarked or poorly marked dive boat is just a boat in my eyes.
 
Thanks to everyone for the replies.
I think we have proven a few things.
1. sometimes the dreaded A flag is not used as it should and is difficult to see
2. We agree that it'd be wise to keep clear of divers and
3. A friendly discussion about a subject always raises awareness, which in this case has to be a good thing!

Thanks for your input, pass the message on to as many as possible, both about the flags and the keeping clear bit.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
you cant rely on local knowledge an unmarked or poorly marked dive boat is just a boat in my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely right, Graham, and I note that mitchc has yet to say whether he was observing the Rules and displaying a RIGID REPLICA of Flag "A" and if he had taken the necessary actions to ensure its visibility. If he was then there is no excuse for not seeing the dive boat, but all too often they do not even know about Rule 27 (e) (ii)
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

Sorry Cornishman, though I'd covered this in the other thread. That'll be my fault for multiposting.
From PBO forum:

"gosh what have i started!!!! at least it's got a few people talking about the subject so I geuss it's working.

I make sure my "cloth" dive flag is streaming behind the boat whenever another vessel in in the area......surely this is the same a displaying a rigid flag?
If there are other vessels nearby I "circle" my divers ensuring the flag is visible to all sea users, so yes I make efforts to make the flag visible.
When in the vicinty of divers I never "race" unless I am way out of the area and trying to making contact with another boat who may cause harm to my friends!
And finally my divers never go to all points of the compass because unless they are drifting with the cureent the are given strict instructions which direction to swim! ie we plan the dive then dive the plan!

Again thanks for your comments and taking the time to think about the subject."

So by the letter of the law I'm not quite complying but having a bloody good go! As always these forums bring to light many different opinions, and hopefully always serve to educate.

From the same forum "I thought my large "cloth" flag was visible enough, especially when streaming from A frame of the RIB. Next time we are out I'll show a "rigid" flag as an experiment...... "
I know about Rule 27 (e) (ii), I've not been able to devise a way of carrying this rigid board on the RIB without it either getting broken by dive kit or fixing it so it is visible all round. I will be trying to find a way over the coming weeks, although to be honest I'm not sure it''ll make a huge difference.....would like to be proved wrong though!


I'll report here with the results......
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

I suppose my pernickety attitude comes from two different places.
1. I used to help prepare MN Cadets for their Rules exam for second mate and they had to know them to the point almost of where the punctuation marks are.
2. More than once I have been an "expert witness" in court cases following accidents/incidents, and where defendants were found not to have been following the Colregs to the letter they inevitably lost their case.
That last is well worth remembering, don't you think?
Good luck with the weather for the rest of the year and enjoy your job.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose my pernickety attitude comes from two different places.
That last is well worth remembering, don't you think?
Good luck with the weather for the rest of the year and enjoy your job.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh my job? no sure what you are getting at?
I'm a self employed bike mechanic so yes i do enjoy my job! I don't run the Dive Rib for a living it's just me and some mates who like to go diving as safely as we can. At the end of the day we'd like to have all our limbs attached so we can go back to work on Monday morning.

Could you really argue that a streamed (is that the right term?) cloth flag from the A Frame of a rib is any more visible than a solidly mounted board? Especially when the skippers ensuring the boat displaying the flag is moving across the track of the other boat? Be surprised if you could. As I posted before, next time the boat goes out, it'll have a solid board mounted as an experiment.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

I saw an orkney 19 yesterday, two divers in the water, nobody in the boat, and no flag of any sort!!!!
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

I've seen this kind of thing too!!! It's bloody stupid if you ask me!!! They must be mad, hope they never have a problem and need help.
Maybe the could shout "helllllpppp" into their bubbles just like the cartoons! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

Hmmm ... if I see a dive boat screaming about, I tend to assume their are no divers in the water, probably because a lot of dive boats have flags up pernamently rather than only when divers are in the water. A stationary or drifting dive boat with a clearly visible flag is going to be treated with more "respect" than some maniac carving turns trying to get his flag to stream. Its not really rocket science.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm ... if I see a dive boat screaming about, I tend to assume their are no divers in the water, probably because a lot of dive boats have flags up pernamently rather than only when divers are in the water. A stationary or drifting dive boat with a clearly visible flag is going to be treated with more "respect" than some maniac carving turns trying to get his flag to stream. Its not really rocket science.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a maniac and I don't have to scream around to get the flag to fly. Usually a couple of knts at tickover does the trick. Indeed it's not rocket science to keep a safe distance from a dive boat, but after the weekend I've just had you'd think so.

See you on/in the Sea.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

I was referring to your job as skipper of a vessel engaged in diving operations.
I won't argue one way or t'other which is more visible - my point is that you are covered by Colregs and should follow them if you want to avoid prosecution should an incident reach the Admiralty Court. They won't even listen to your arguments if the other side insists you weren't following the Rules.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

"If it is a rib it may be a dive boat
If it is also orange then it's more likely
If it is also stationary then it is even more likely"

Could also be the RNLI out doing a bit of fishing /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It was also mentioned about divers worrying about MoBo's thundering by, in my experience (I dived for about 17 years) at least you know a MoBo is around, you don't know that a sail boat is heading your way!
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm ... if I see a dive boat screaming about, I tend to assume their are no divers in the water, probably because a lot of dive boats have flags up pernamently rather than only when divers are in the water. A stationary or drifting dive boat with a clearly visible flag is going to be treated with more "respect" than some maniac carving turns trying to get his flag to stream. Its not really rocket science.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a maniac and I don't have to scream around to get the flag to fly. Usually a couple of knts at tickover does the trick. Indeed it's not rocket science to keep a safe distance from a dive boat, but after the weekend I've just had you'd think so.

See you on/in the Sea.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well if you can't be bothered to ensure the safety of your divers by following clear regulations

"a rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 meter in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility."

then I suggest that you are tending towards maniacy.

As for a couple of knots, the Beaufort guideline for F3 is that light flags are extended .. and the bottom of that range is 7 knots.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
I was referring to your job as skipper of a vessel engaged in diving operations.
I won't argue one way or t'other which is more visible - my point is that you are covered by Colregs and should follow them if you want to avoid prosecution should an incident reach the Admiralty Court. They won't even listen to your arguments if the other side insists you weren't following the Rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aah I see what you mean.
Certainly agree with you but I think that, as with a lot of the other Reg's, they need a bit of interpretation in certain instance's.
As stated before I'll give the solidly mounted board a go....see if we are given a bit more room........
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

Fair enough Jimi, all i was trying to do is raise awarness of the issue.
As in one of my other posts; these forums are always good thing as they sometimes raise important issues where "both sides" of the argument will learn something. Never wanted to apportion blame, just make others aware of the potential problems they could be causing!

Please re-read some of my posts, you'll see that I accept that my floppy flag may not be enough and I'll be giving a rigid job a go.

Actually you are right! just checked, the flag was flying when I was stationary and guess what .....it was a force 3. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough Jimi, all i was trying to do is raise awarness of the issue.
Actually you are right! just checked, the flag was flying when I was stationary and guess what .....it was a force 3.
Please re-read some of my posts, you'll see that I accept that my floppy flag may not be enough and I'll be giving a rigid job a go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm . it it was flying in a Force 3 and you were stationary then the flag would be only visible in two directions the other part of the regulation is "Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility." So if you're drifting windward of me in your F3 I'm not going to see your flag ..
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

I made that comment to try to lighten the mood on this potentially serious subject.

Ok Ok I'm not getting into an argument with you old chap, I thought my flag was visible to others but obvioulsy I was mistaken. I'm really really sorry.
I suppose the offending boats at the weekend couldn't see my waving arms either?

Oh and by the way the safety of my divers is my biggest concern, hence this post! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif and /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

[ QUOTE ]
I made that comment to try to lighten the mood on this potentially serious subject.

Ok Ok I'm not getting into an argument with you old chap, I thought my flag was visible to others but obvioulsy I was mistaken. I'm really really sorry.
I suppose the offending boats at the weekend couldn't see my waving arms either?

Oh and by the way the safety of my divers is my biggest concern, hence this post! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Waving arms is an international distress signal and would have the effect of attracting boats closer to you rather than warning them off.
 
Re: Urgent help required on a safety matter (sorry about the multiple

I think what Mitch is saying is that if he see's a vessel that might be a problem to him he maneuvers the rib so that the flag can be seen by that vessel, simple as that.
Not that us east coasters see many dive boats, I think the divers would need feelers rather than arms!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top