Upwind performance 145% Genoa Furling etc!

[roblpm]

Into our fourth season of racing in 2017. Club racing in a Parker 275. We are not that hot but have a super smooth hull for the upcoming season having spent last winter getting the multiple layers of cruiser uno off.

We are pretty rubbish so the obvious improvement is more practice......

But..... in previous seasons when we have looked at raceqs after the races our downwind speed is fine compared to others. If there is a reaching leg we are fine. But our upwind speed is pretty poor.

I bought a cruising laminate main and a cruising laminate 145% Genoa 2 years ago and then a number 3 laminate a year ago.

The number 3 is a revelation in the right conditions. We can actually sail upwind.

Where we suffer is that we just are rubbish upwind with the genoa even in light airs. It is on a furler and has a uv strip. Great for leaving on the boat and for going cruising but I am beginning to think not great for racing! I think it doesn't set fantastically in one tack.

So I think maybe the cut off for the number 3 is slightly lower than we think, say 15 knots?

So we have a crappy old rotostay furler.....

What to do? New number 1 with no uv strip to match the number 3?

Ditch the furler for races, get hanks put on the number 3 and the new number 1? But how to store the furler and a total hassle for changing over?

Buy a smaller genoa and accept poor light wind performance? We are in Scotland......

A new furler?

Also not spend too much money as the boat is not worth that much......!!

Hmmmmmm.

Came second in one race on handicap last year (our handicap is fantastic due to some bad results....), would love to win a race this season!

 

[Triassic]

If your handicap system is adjusted according to results spending all that money is only going to get you one or two good results before your rating is adjusted to reflect them. Obviously it's not very rewarding to be sailing a boat that isn't performing well but sometimes there can be quite a challenge to be had making inferior equipment work for you rather than buying good gear and not using it properly.

 

[awol]

I note that you have only posted 14 results for 2016 of which only 4 were close enough to count for rolling handicap - you need to race a lot more! Consistency with what you have could make more of a difference than a new sail.

 

[roblpm]

I note that you have only posted 14 results for 2016 of which only 4 were close enough to count for rolling handicap - you need to race a lot more! Consistency with what you have could make more of a difference than a new sail.

Yes bad year. Wife is ill! Hence too much time pondering stuff instead of practicing!!

Anyway its a comprehensive 2-0 for doing nothing so far!

 

[dunedin]

What sail maker supplied the 145% genoa ? I would ask them to come and have a look at this set on the boat and give some advice before spending more money. That's the value of using a local sailmaker for race sails.
I certainly wouldn't start removing furler systems etc until a race expert has a look, as lots of boats club race successfully with a furler fitted (even if many just use it as a groove luff foil and change sails when needed)

 

[savageseadog]

A furling jib will never equal a properly constructed conventional jib with battens, to windward.

 

[lw395]

Possibly worth getting some photos taken of the sail when set.
The whole rig really. The problem could be the main is not set to work with the genoa.
Ideally have chord lines on the sails, plenty of tell tales and get photos from astern and abeam from a RIB.
A good sailmaker will probably be able to tell a lot from that.

 

[roblpm]

Possibly worth getting some photos taken of the sail when set.
The whole rig really. The problem could be the main is not set to work with the genoa.
Ideally have chord lines on the sails, plenty of tell tales and get photos from astern and abeam from a RIB.
A good sailmaker will probably be able to tell a lot from that.

Yes. Good plan.

 

[Ingwe]

Do you have any battens in the sail - and if so are they vertical or horizontal? One of the things that you often get with a roller furling sails a lot of "hook" on the leach in light airs because without any battens you end up over tightening the leach line in stronger conditions but then forget to ease it when in lighter airs. I have just ordered a new furling jib but have specified it with roller furling horizontal battens partly because on the current sail which has long vertical battens you cannot get the leach to set well in light airs - because there is nothing to push it out straight which is what normal horizontal battens do.

The other thing I would mention is that whilst people are still learning to sail boats fast the key thing that they get wrong in light airs is that they try and point too soon. Boat speed in light airs is everything, your keel generates more "lift" the faster you go so until you are close to hull speed you need to keep the bow down a good 5 degrees (maybe more depending on boat design and wind strength), you actually find that a boat sailing fast with the bow down not only goes faster but because the foils are working better they actually end up sailing higher than the boat that is trying to point high.

 

[Racecruiser]

A furling jib will never equal a properly constructed conventional jib with battens, to windward.

Yes that's true if you're talking about dacron cruisy genoas with a large overlap. We have a furler with a furling 110% jib that sheets inside the swept back spreaders (as Humphrey designed the boat) - it's a racing sail with horizontal folding battens (as Ingwe has said) which we always take off after sailing and store below in a long bag. Sets beautifully and saves dropping and hoisting with spinnaker hoists and drops. We only carry one extra jib which is a heavy weather dacron jib with small fixed battens so non-furling. This set up gets us in the silverware in JOG and occasional other races in the solent.

Sanders of Lymington incase you want to know. BTW I suggest avoid vertical battens as they are a big nuisance when the dropping the sail!

 

[roblpm]

Yes that's true if you're talking about dacron cruisy genoas with a large overlap. We have a furler with a furling 110% jib that sheets inside the swept back spreaders (as Humphrey designed the boat) - it's a racing sail with horizontal folding battens (as Ingwe has said) which we always take off after sailing and store below in a long bag. Sets beautifully and saves dropping and hoisting with spinnaker hoists and drops. We only carry one extra jib which is a heavy weather dacron jib with small fixed battens so non-furling. This set up gets us in the silverware in JOG and occasional other races in the solent.

Sanders of Lymington incase you want to know. BTW I suggest avoid vertical battens as they are a big nuisance when the dropping the sail!

Aha. However our number 3 has vertical battens and sets nicely and we furl for downwind. Its quite small as the boat is only 28 feet so doesn't seem too much if a hassle for taking on and off.

Horizontal folding battens. Interesting. Do they work?! Do you need some sort of fancy furler?

 

[Ingwe]

Aha. However our number 3 has vertical battens and sets nicely and we furl for downwind. Its quite small as the boat is only 28 feet so doesn't seem too much if a hassle for taking on and off.

Horizontal folding battens. Interesting. Do they work?! Do you need some sort of fancy furler?

I think folding is the wrong word we are talking about these - http://www.rbsbattens.com/battens/rbs-roller-battens/ (there are a couple of other manufacturers who produce similar battens) so they just work on a normal furler. I haven't used a sail with them yet but I think the only snags are that you wouldn't want to leave the sail up with them in for extended periods and that with the stiffer versions you do not get as good a furl as they stick out slightly.

 

[fredrussell]

I'm surprised to hear your Parker 275 is not performing well upwind. I have a Super Seal 26, not a vastly different boat to yours and with a fairly well used 150% genoa she's a demon upwind. And thats with me on the tiller - I would love to see what she's capable of with someone who actually knows what they're doing.

 

[Racecruiser]

Horizontal folding battens. Interesting. Do they work?! Do you need some sort of fancy furler?[/QUOTE]

No fancy furler required - they work well but do get a bit kinked after a lot of rollings which is why it's good to always remove the sail in port. Ours seem to be like two metal tape measures side by side with the concave faces together covered with a tough material.

 

[roblpm]

I'm surprised to hear your Parker 275 is not performing well upwind. I have a Super Seal 26, not a vastly different boat to yours and with a fairly well used 150% genoa she's a demon upwind. And thats with me on the tiller - I would love to see what she's capable of with someone who actually knows what they're doing.

I think actually we are pretty good with the new number 3. Its the genoa with the foam luff that doesn't seem to go well. We may also have got the wind speed crossover between the two sails wrong.

 

[Birdseye]

Interested in your comment " I think it doesn't set fantastically in one tack." If that is correct then there is a rigging issue other than simply a sail issue. Have you got the rig set up right? Is the mast vertical? Correct rake and bow? Correct rig tension? Check all these basics before you spend any money on sails.

 

[roblpm]

Interested in your comment " I think it doesn't set fantastically in one tack." If that is correct then there is a rigging issue other than simply a sail issue. Have you got the rig set up right? Is the mast vertical? Correct rake and bow? Correct rig tension? Check all these basics before you spend any money on sails.

Yes good idea thanks. I think i will get a rigger/sail guy out at the beginning of the season to have a look at it.

 

[awol]

Vela seems to be more consistent in sailing to her h'cap. Perhaps a visual comparison and a chat might be in order?

 

[roblpm]

Vela seems to be more consistent in sailing to her h'cap. Perhaps a visual comparison and a chat might be in order?

True. But he knew what he was doing and we don't! Vela is sold though, new owners not as experienced.....

 

[flaming]

I've never seen battens on an overlapping genoa. Not sure if that's a practical issue, as they're going to smack the rig on every tack, or a rules thing, but I expect the former.

I think that the problem you have is the spec of your sail. In that you have gone to a sailmaker and asked for a laminate sail to use as a roller furling cruising sail. This poor sail has to cope with winds up to 30kts in part reefed status and so will necessarily be a lot heavier than how a sailmaker would build a similar sized racing sail that is only for light wind racing. So you have a sail that is too heavy and probably too flat for light winds, but much too big for winds that the cloth is built for. The eternal compromise with roller furling, and so no surprise at all that you go much better with your number 3.

If you don't want to invest in a proper lightweight racing genoa, then I'd simply just sail with your number 3 all the time and ask for a rating credit for not using the big sail.