jwilson
Well-Known Member
In area G there are still 20 vessels with the same name as my yacht all with IMO numbers. Only one can be Part I.
Unique boat names & Part I Register: How to check?
- Thread starter Sticky Fingers
- Start date
In area G there are still 20 vessels with the same name as my yacht all with IMO numbers. Only one can be Part I.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
Um. Well I'm new to this so I'm officially confused now. Paraphrasing three snippets....:
A "For part 1 registration the name must be unique on the whole register"
B "There are many ports of registry so you can have Passing Wind [port of registry Southampton] and Passing Wind [port of registry Portsmouth]"
C "In area G there are still 20 vessels with the same name as my yacht all with IMO numbers. Only one can be Part I."
A: If the ITU database has a vessel with an IMO No, and that in turn indicates that a vessel of that name is on the Registry, then the corollary is that there can only be one of that name with an entry in that column. But that's not the case, so I think A cannot be right.
B: If the ITU database has a vessel with an IMO No, and that in turn indicates that a vessel of that name is on the Registry, then if there is more than one of the same name with an IMO number, then they must have different ports of registry. Possible.
C: If the ITU database has a vessel with an IMO No, and that in turn indicates that a vessel of that name is on the Registry, and the name must be unique i the Part I registry, then if there is more than one of the same name with an IMO number, then they must be allocated a number in another part of the Registry. Also feasible.
Another possibility is that some or (all but one) of the entries are duplicates or dead entries. Example for 'Linnet' below shows two with the same IMO number.
Ho hum. I'll phone them tomorrow and find out!
A "For part 1 registration the name must be unique on the whole register"
B "There are many ports of registry so you can have Passing Wind [port of registry Southampton] and Passing Wind [port of registry Portsmouth]"
C "In area G there are still 20 vessels with the same name as my yacht all with IMO numbers. Only one can be Part I."
A: If the ITU database has a vessel with an IMO No, and that in turn indicates that a vessel of that name is on the Registry, then the corollary is that there can only be one of that name with an entry in that column. But that's not the case, so I think A cannot be right.
B: If the ITU database has a vessel with an IMO No, and that in turn indicates that a vessel of that name is on the Registry, then if there is more than one of the same name with an IMO number, then they must have different ports of registry. Possible.
C: If the ITU database has a vessel with an IMO No, and that in turn indicates that a vessel of that name is on the Registry, and the name must be unique i the Part I registry, then if there is more than one of the same name with an IMO number, then they must be allocated a number in another part of the Registry. Also feasible.
Another possibility is that some or (all but one) of the entries are duplicates or dead entries. Example for 'Linnet' below shows two with the same IMO number.
Ho hum. I'll phone them tomorrow and find out!
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Stork_III
Well-Known Member
In your Linnet example ID no 03480 is the same vessel, one with MMSI radio, other with earlier non MMSI radio. The third is probably SSR number as that appears in the IMO column as well as Part 1 reg number.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
There is now only one port of registry - Cardiff. The use of a port in the name can either be to create a unique name by use of the xxx of yyy where the place name is a port although in theory it does not even have to be a port. See the famous "Myth of Malham" where Malham is a farming estate in Yorkshire.
It is helpful to have a port name on the boat if you are going abroad as a port of origin is expected by most other countries so saves a lot of hassle.
Example of my boat on the SSR although this photo was taken before I got the number which is now top left of transom.
It is helpful to have a port name on the boat if you are going abroad as a port of origin is expected by most other countries so saves a lot of hassle.
Example of my boat on the SSR although this photo was taken before I got the number which is now top left of transom.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
The point of issue is Part I registration where a 'Port of Registry' is a requirement and must be specified on the application; further, it must be displayed on the vessel with the name (and not "of" if not part of the name).
It was laika of this parish who disabused me of the impression - specifically stated by the agency who facilitated my Part I application - that a name need only be unique to the port of registry, by writing to the MCA and quoting their reply on this forum:
However, the period of only five years of registration for both Part I and Part III (SSR) has removed a lot of dead wood and freed up many names that filled the Part I register but may well have been rotting wrecks around the world.
It was laika of this parish who disabused me of the impression - specifically stated by the agency who facilitated my Part I application - that a name need only be unique to the port of registry, by writing to the MCA and quoting their reply on this forum:
However, the period of only five years of registration for both Part I and Part III (SSR) has removed a lot of dead wood and freed up many names that filled the Part I register but may well have been rotting wrecks around the world.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
OK. I'm going to phone them today and try and get some clear facts...!
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
For the part 1 register there are still lots of ports of registry, even though all registering is now done at Cardiff.
Laika was entirely correct; there can only be one vessel with a particular name on the Part 1 registry. So for example, there can only be one "Symphony II", whether she is (nominally) registered in Glasgow, Portsmouth or Bristol, and there can only be one "Symphony II of Poole", whether she is (nominally) registered in Glasgow, Portsmouth or Bristol.
Fishing boats are more restricted in their ports of registry, but the same name can be registered in more than one place, so there could be a "Stella Maris" in Lerwick, another one in Fraserburgh, another one in Grimsby, another one in Lowestoft and so on.
The noddy register isn't restricted at all.
laika
Well-Known Member
Your logic was fine up until the assumption that the information in the ITU database was wholly correct. Another alternative might be that no verification of "official number" is made on the Ofcom licensing form and people stick their ssr or an old number from when a boat was previously registered in this field.
EDIT: Oops. See Barnac1e has beaten me to it. That's what you get for sitting with an open "reply" for an hour before hitting submit...
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Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
Thanks folks.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
OK I've now spoken to them. The facts as given to me by the grumpy, unhelpful and standoffish person I spoke to are:
1. Name must be unique on the Part I register. (not per port of registry)
2. There is no ability to view the register in any form.
3. They will not advise over the phone whether a proposed name is in use / available.
4. They will provide details of the registered details of a vessel if the name is provided; this offers a workaround of "name checking" by asking for details of Vessel X and seeing what they say. If it's not registered, they'd have to say so.
Other than 4. above, the only way forward is to submit their form with my choices of name. They will then advise which one if any has been allocated.
What a crap service.
1. Name must be unique on the Part I register. (not per port of registry)
2. There is no ability to view the register in any form.
3. They will not advise over the phone whether a proposed name is in use / available.
4. They will provide details of the registered details of a vessel if the name is provided; this offers a workaround of "name checking" by asking for details of Vessel X and seeing what they say. If it's not registered, they'd have to say so.
Other than 4. above, the only way forward is to submit their form with my choices of name. They will then advise which one if any has been allocated.
What a crap service.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
Their reluctance to cooperate on disclosing what has been registered has a lot to do with their draconian abilities to refuse a name, even if it is not already registered. A form of censoring unsuitable names - usually risqué or otherwise inappropriate (in their eyes).
They are avoiding having to argue about why your choice is not accepted.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Looks like "Never Again 3" might be available. 
muddywater
Well-Known Member
I've just been through this minefield and our Part 1 registration is finally complete. For what it's worth, when I initially phoned to enquire about whether our preferred name was already registered I, as others, was told that they couldn't provide this information. However, when I phoned again a few days later to make a couple of different queries about the process I must have caught them on a good day, as the person I spoke to was really helpful answering my enquiries and when I broached the subject of boat names, they happily told me which of our various options were already taken and which were currently available!
We didn't really want to display our 'Port of Choice' on our transom. This Port had to be one from a limited list of Ports of Registry which doesn't actually seem to be published anywhere readily accessible - they could only read out the options when I called to try and get a copy of this to see what the options were! We did find out though that you don't have to display the Port of Choice if you are a member of an approved sailing club (again, no published list of these is available!) but yet another call to them confirmed that the club to which we belong is happily on this mystical list. However, I'm now wondering if we should after all display this, following an earlier comment that this saves hassle when abroad (we're heading off cruising long term soon). Interested to hear if others have found this to be the case.
We didn't really want to display our 'Port of Choice' on our transom. This Port had to be one from a limited list of Ports of Registry which doesn't actually seem to be published anywhere readily accessible - they could only read out the options when I called to try and get a copy of this to see what the options were! We did find out though that you don't have to display the Port of Choice if you are a member of an approved sailing club (again, no published list of these is available!) but yet another call to them confirmed that the club to which we belong is happily on this mystical list. However, I'm now wondering if we should after all display this, following an earlier comment that this saves hassle when abroad (we're heading off cruising long term soon). Interested to hear if others have found this to be the case.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Yes, and I believe some will be registered to other members of the Red Ensign group of which there are 13:
http://www.redensigngroup.org/
A1GSS may consider speaking to Guernsey or Jersey, the protocols are similar but it is often easier dealing with a smaller office.
Registration with Guernsey (say) has certain advantages (apart from not having to deal with Cardiff) they issue the admirable Blue Book and I understand they have no plans to change this. I also suspect that renewal of registration is every 10 years, rather than 5.
One possible downside is the possibility of being more of a casual target for French Customs, as the register has been misused by some French nationals in order to evade duty. They generally lose interest when they see you are British.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
^ Ref Guernsey, I don't have that option as the Part I registration is required by my Finance company.
doug748
Well-Known Member
It is part one registration as a British Ship, same as Cardiff, see here:
http://www.harbours.gg/Registry-British-Ships-Guernsey
http://www.harbours.gg/Registry-British-Ships-Guernsey
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The downside of of Guernsey registration is that some EU states (Greece for example) will treat the boat as non EU and restrict its movements. Strictly speaking you cannot apply for TI though, if you as owner are EU resident.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You would be wise to do so as you will be asked almost every time you deal with customs or even a marina because most have a box to fill in with PofR Even the Port police in Greece have it on the form they fill in to calculate your port fees.
Choose a well known port with nautical connections in the wider world such as Southampton, Liverpool, Portsmouth, Plymouth - or even London if you don't mind being connected with that place.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
I had no trouble to find the list of ports on the Gov.uk Guidance list:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/302163/ports_of_registry_for_parts_i-3.pdf
From my experience in the Mediterranean and Caribbean many harbour offices expect a port of registry and even when I had an early SSR (in the days when issued by the RYA) I enclosed it in a small folder with all details of the boat including a "Port of Registry: Swansea" (the precursor to Cardiff) to satisfy them after earlier being met by raised eyebrows and quizzical looks with answering "None".
Their attitude could be something to do with:
"UN Convention on the law of the sea 1982, Section 91.9(b):
Under general maritime law...every vessel has a home port or port of registry which constitutes the legal residence of the ship, regardless of its physical location at any give moment"
Under general maritime law...every vessel has a home port or port of registry which constitutes the legal residence of the ship, regardless of its physical location at any give moment"
doug748
Well-Known Member
Here we go:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-186937.html
How time flies.
You would no doubt discuss the matter with your finance company A1GSS.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-186937.html
How time flies.
You would no doubt discuss the matter with your finance company A1GSS.
