Understanding autopilot packages/options

[ylop]

When we bought our boat (Bav32) we didn’t think we would use an autopilot much so weren’t concerned that none was fitted. We now realise it would actually be quite nice to have, although far from essential. So I’ve been trying to get my head round the options.

The instruments are all Raymarine ST1 and work fine. The official Jefa solution is a sprocket drive in the helm console. The most common approach on similar boats seems to be a Raymarine wheel pilot. The internet doesn’t seem to think too highly of them although many people saying fine for 32’, but noisier and less convenient than the jefa solution. I suspect that second hand wheel pilots may be being removed because they are struggling and so have had a hard life. Nobody seems to sell the Jefa sprocket drive unit second hand - probably a mix of so expensive few were installed and it still works with no obvious upgrade.

I think Raymarine and others may also have suitable sprocket drives but probably involving a bit of surgery / packaging to get in the space and water tight again.

So am I right in thinking I will need the following:

- a control unit at the helm to say start/stop autopilot (something like a P70s).
- if that control unit is modern then a ST1 to STNG or similar adaptor to feed the wind data etc
- the drive unit/motor itself - either the Jefa sprocket (or similar) or the wheel pilot.
- the actuator control unit which the drive motor connects to (older systems seem to refer to this as a course computer or is that yet another box?)
- some sort of fancy box of electronics and sensors so the boat knows which way it’s pointing (older system seemed to “just” use a fluxgate compass)

Am I missing any key parts?

So my choices seem to be:

- New wheelpilot package for about £1600
- New package as above excluding the wheelpilot £1400 + Jefa sprocket drive (probably nearly £2k delivered with brackets chain etc!)
- Similar alternatives from other suppliers but will they play nice with the ST1 wind power instrument etc?
- second hand with older Raymarine ST1 stuff probably approaching £800-900 + drive unit.

Have I missed any other ways to do this more economically?

I have looked at PyPilot and mostly discounted it. I’m not afraid of the electronics, although the engineering with the forces involved is probably pushing the limits of my comfort zone but I don’t think the user interface / experience is something my wife or kids would feel overly happy with compared to a red button to disengage on a “proper” head unit etc.

Does Orca Core replace any of the bits or just provide an interface?

There seem to be loads of packages around with linear drives, hydraulic drives or the wheel drives. I don’t see any with mechanical/sprocket drives - am I missing something? I realise these things are cheaper when bought as a package but it grates that the pack without the wheelpilot is only £200 difference but the wheel is £600 on its own! How much worse is the wheel pilot than the proper solution? I think our three main uses will be: hold us HTW whilst raising/lowering main sail; let the helmsman get some shelter under spray hood when it’s pouring rain; potentially letting us do some single handing (or go with total novice). Long term we might use it on much longer passages but for next 2-3 years unlikely to be used for more than a few hours at a time, and I’d never sail singlehanded on long passages (so it will always have a human intervention option easily available).

Is the second hand stuff expensive just because it’s convenient not to upgrade electronics / it looks nice to have matching instruments? How much better is modern multi axis sensor etc than the basic fluxgate compass option?

It will be an overwinter project. Do these things go on sale at the boat show in sept or has internet mean we have all year round “discounts”? Is the second hand market seasonal when everyone else does their winter upgrades?

 

[Tranona]

First thing to clear is that the electronics side is independent of the autopilot drive. All the drive does is receive a signal from the control unit, so if you fit an EV 200 pack it will interface with your other instruments with an adaptor if necessary.

The problem with the Bav 32 (and many other Bavs of the same era) is that there is insufficient room for a linear drive to the quadrant. I am assuming that your 32 is an early 2000s J&J design, rather than the later Farr design. The chain drive unit from Jefa is a possibility, but suspect you will find there is again insufficient room to fit it underneath the console. Bavaria used the Lewmar chain drive on many larger models from 38 upwards as well as the centre cockpit Oceans where there was room. My 2001 37 originally had a belt drive 3000 which I replaced with a 4000 wheelpilot. This was a disaster, getting through three drives on my trip back from Corfu to southern Spain. However Raymarine eventually replaced the drive with an updated version which I think is still current. The weakness was the plastic gears. I sold the boat 4 years later and no problems, but very light use compared with previously. At the time I investigated using the Lewmar drive, but there was not enough room to fit it.

Long winded way of saying that I think the reason why you only see wheelpilots is because it is the only thing that will fit. However it may be worth investigating the B&G unit that uses a cable drive to the quadrant or tiller arm.
SD10 Drive Unit | B&G Sailing Electronics

If as I suspect you are limited to the Wheelpilot, it is well suited to the boat. In terms of functionality and networking it is as good as you can get. The reservations are about reliability of the drive. However your boat is relatively light at 3750kgs, well within the Raymarine recommended limit. By comparison my 37 was nearly 2 tonnes heavier and close to the limit. Operationally it is a bit more fussy than a linear drive because it does not have an automatic clutch. You have to engage the lever before engaging the drive. However you soon get used to it.

For what you want to do it will be more than adequate, and indeed you will wonder how you managed without! Ignoring the reliability issue (which may now not be an issue) its limitations are in heavy weather where it might struggle, particularly if you are over canvassed. In "normal" sailing you will likely find you use it almost all the time on longer passages, particularly motoring or motorsailing. Sail trim is important but easier to achieve when you leave the steering to the pilot. I single handed my much bigger and heavier 33 and used the autopilot all the time on passage - and even had sufficient confidence to use it with the cruising chute up.

 

[ylop]

Tranona, thanks for that - yes it’s a J&J design 32.

Jefa tell me their drive unit will fit and sent me drawings of it but I’ve not got my tape measure out to prove it to myself. The sprocket is already on the shaft the wheel turns, so according to Jefa I just need to send them money and then bolt it on and off we go. But it more than doubles the cost compared to the wheel pilot! I did read of someone else who fitted a lewmar (?) unit but it involved an angle-grinder and then making good - which seems a bit extreme, when it’s in the same ball park of cost as the one that should just fit.

Your comments about robustness of the wheelpilot reinforce that I should only consider new ones.

The Sd10 is interesting - but doesn’t look like it will make it much more affordable.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I can’t comment on the drive device needed for your boat.

I fitted Raymarine ACU400 (course computer), EV1 Sensor, rudder feedback and P70S, basically the EV400 pack. In my case connected to an old Neco motor driving a chain and sprocket.

For a long time I used it standalone. I was going to change the motor out for a Jefa unit as I had some drive problems. These were solved by cleaning slip rings and carbon brushes.

The point is, the Raymarine kit has worked flawlessly for me. Eventually I added an Axiom+ MFD with Lighthouse charts, and connected to the network. Again a painless experience. The MFD identified the autopilot and updated all software.

Later I bought the Raymarine ST to STNG converter and connected my ST60 instruments to the network. Again a painless Installation.

Now, with integration, the auto helm
works from MFD as well as control head, and can sail to wind. Mine are all bulkhead mounted, not pedestal. I just lean forward and push the button and the autohelm engages. Still learning to use the integrated features.

At the end of the day, the learning curve for me was steep, but the fitting and wiring, is very straight forward. I have found the Raymarine forum on Facebook not that helpful. Here is better.

You can certainly fit the auto helm standalone and move forward with other stuff as time and funds allow. I deliberately chose all Raymarine for compatibility reasons but that is less relevant with NMEA2000, just connectors.

I never knew what I was missing until I fitted it, as the old Neco system did not work when I bought the boat. I would not be without it.

I got a great deal at SIBS on the ACU400, plus the NECO motor conversation from Hudson Marine. Later, I used Raymarine 25% discount on RRP with trade in of old plotter, to buy the Aciom+ 12. That offer may be still on. I bought the Axiom+ from Ardfern using the 25% discount. Defo check with Ardfern or DDZ at Largs, both being agents. I think you are WCoS based. Always good deals from Cactus on line as well. Shop around for any cables, converters as prices vary ie I got the 10m network cable as I needed extra length. Google shopping is your friend.

Good luck with your decision process.

 

[Tranona]

Tranona, thanks for that - yes it’s a J&J design 32.

Jefa tell me their drive unit will fit and sent me drawings of it but I’ve not got my tape measure out to prove it to myself. The sprocket is already on the shaft the wheel turns, so according to Jefa I just need to send them money and then bolt it on and off we go. But it more than doubles the cost compared to the wheel pilot! I did read of someone else who fitted a lewmar (?) unit but it involved an angle-grinder and then making good - which seems a bit extreme, when it’s in the same ball park of cost as the one that should just fit.

Your comments about robustness of the wheelpilot reinforce that I should only consider new ones.

The Sd10 is interesting - but doesn’t look like it will make it much more affordable.

On price - the reality is that the under deck drives are much more sophisticated so will inevitably be more expensive as is the installation - but is a much superior product. However the benefits really start to show when the boat is larger and heavier. The advantage with the cable drive is that the motor can be mounted longitudinally which is often much easier, particularly on smaller boats where there is not enough room laterally for a linear drive, or it is difficult to build a strong point for mounting the fixed end. If the Jefa unit does fit - it looks much smaller and lighter and the mounting bracket simpler than the Lewmar unit then that is probably the best choice technically but more than double the price of a wheel pilot. It does work nicely if the one on my 33 is anything to go by.

The wheelpilot gives the biggest bang for your buck and is easy to integrate if you want the steer to win function or control from a chart plotter MFD. It is a DIY installation job. I fitted a complete new unit with all the wiring except linking to wind in less than a day in the 37.

 

[ylop]

R.A.H.

Thanks for that. Yes Clyde based.

Just when I thought I was getting my head around it the ACUs come in 100, 150, 300, 400 … I think the difference is “just” the amps for motor?

Good to hear that people are finding these simply DIY jobs. As soon as it involves multiple bits talking to each other I immediate expect it to be a black art!

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Below decks is definitely better and quieter, but the WheelPilot works fine in most coastal conditions. However, even on a 32 footer it can’t and won’t cope indefinitely with large loads on the rudder - e.g downwind sailing in an Atlantic swell. After a catastophic failure mid way across Biscay last year, we replaced ours with a linear drive this year.

Installing the electronics is easy - albeit involving a good deal of boat yoga. The wheel pilot involves drilling two holes in the binnacle to mount a spoke. Mounting a linear drive is rather more work. In our case this involved creating a stainless steel mounting bracket which was glassed onto the hull. The hull itself was also reinforced locally with several layers.

ACU 100 is fine for a WheelPilot. You’ll need the ACU200 if you opt for a beefier below decks solution.

If you need a complete package, Hudson Marine and Cactus Navigation usually have quite competitive deals. Hudson are very helpful if you book an appointment with them.

If you end up opting for the WheelPilot route then I have a nearly new one sitting in my garage!

 

[jwilson]

Wheelpilots work, until you get to trying to use it to control the boat sailing hard offwind - it just doesn't respond fast enough - then linear or other direct drives are much better. For holding the boat head to wind whilst you hoist the main, or motoring, they work fine, but the Raymarine one is irritatingly clicky-clacky. The internal drive belt adjustment is critical: as is the internal cleanliness of the tiny wheels and bearings, but that is just maintenance.

I was in a similar situation: bought near-new boat with Raymarine wheelpilot, couldn't justify big upgrade to linear drive which would have meant a new head unit and computer etc as well.

 

[ylop]

Installing the electronics is easy - albeit involving a good deal of boat yoga.

Actually I think I might not need any yoga as I’ve already been through that once and left some mousing lines in! The physical installation is never the hard part anyway it’s the soft/firmware config that trips you up.

ACU 100 is fine for a WheelPilot. You’ll need the ACU200 if you opt for a beefier below decks solution.

Ah, thanks for that. Important point to consider if we want an upgrade route.

If you end up opting for the WheelPilot route then I have a nearly new one sitting in my garage!

Just the bit that does on the wheel or do you have the acu100 too?

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Just the wheel bit. I bought an ACU 200 from the get-go, knowing that I’d probably upgrade from wheel to ram.

Actually, from my experience the software config was absolute child’s play. Just turn it all on and run the Dock Wizard programme. Follow the on-screen instructions and 2 minutes later it’s done. One’s supposed to calibrate the compass next by doing a 360 somewhere in calm water. I didn’t bother with this step and yet the compass is operating flawlessly. I’ll qualify all this by adding that I bought a complete, modern Raymarine suite including radar, windvane and triducer. Trying to mix in various generations of kit may or may not be more problematic.

Don’t ignore the importance of the rudder position indicator to any EV100 set up. It very much improves the ACU’s performance.

 

[Pete7]

Don’t ignore the importance of the rudder position indicator to any EV100 set up. It very much improves the ACU’s performance.

Indeed, makes a big difference when sailing down wind. Whilst only recommended by RM, I think its essential. The only problem we have had with our wheel pilot is the belt started to slip after 4 years so replaced it for about £30. Suits our budget and Moody 31 weighing in at 4600kgs empty and 5100kgs on the crane in cruising trip with dinghy and full tanks.

Pete

 

[KompetentKrew]

I'm surprised the ACU 100 is inadequate for a 32' boat, although I certainly would prefer a below decks installation.

I have a previous generation of Raymarine ACU, a Smartpilot, on my 40' boat and I believe it is the equivalent of the EV 100. But my boat is tiller-steered, so I suppose that may make a difference.

 

[Tranona]

I'm surprised the ACU 100 is inadequate for a 32' boat, although I certainly would prefer a below decks installation.

I have a previous generation of Raymarine ACU, a Smartpilot, on my 40' boat and I believe it is the equivalent of the EV 100. But my boat is tiller-steered, so I suppose that may make a difference.

Yes an EV100 is recommended for up to 7500kgs displacement and the Bavaria 32 is design 3700kgs

 

[KeelsonGraham]

I'm surprised the ACU 100 is inadequate for a 32' boat, although I certainly would prefer a below decks installation.

I have a previous generation of Raymarine ACU, a Smartpilot, on my 40' boat and I believe it is the equivalent of the EV 100. But my boat is tiller-steered, so I suppose that may make a difference.

It’s not the ACU that’s inadequate it’s the Wheelpilot and then only in the sort of conditions you get quite some way off the coast. Raymarine blurb says that the WheelPilot is only fit for coastal sailing. From my experience, I have to agree.

Thus, if your sailing is coastal and doesn’t place too much demand on the steering system, then an ACU100 driving a Wheelpilot is perfectly good enough (although a little noisy).

For adventures like crossing Biscay it’s really not up to the job. (Though I have seen thread topics in which others think it’s fine).

Downing sailing in a big Atlantic swell requires really muscular inputs on the helm. To try to achieve that same level of steering torque through a little half inch cog engaging with fabric teeth is asking too much. The belt slips, and eventually breaks!

 

[ylop]

I'm surprised the ACU 100 is inadequate for a 32' boat, although I certainly would prefer a below decks installation.

I have a previous generation of Raymarine ACU, a Smartpilot, on my 40' boat and I believe it is the equivalent of the EV 100. But my boat is tiller-steered, so I suppose that may make a difference.

I suspect if you could specify the ideal motor for the boat the ACU100 is fine even with a below deck install. (After all it can mostly cope with the wheel pilot and it’s not the motor that seems to be the limit for that). But the below deck install options are all quite beefy motors and so expect the ACU200 power output to run them. Not sure if they would just be weedy if running on the wrong supply or trip something out but either way no point spending the wrong side of £3k on one and saving £200 on something that makes it rubbish.

 

[KeelsonGraham]

The ACU100 is most definitely NOT fine for a below decks install. It can’t supply the power and has no provision for the clutch.

 

[ashtead]

I guess the choice might depend on where you intend to sail ,crew strength and conditions . We had a 2001 Bav 34 with a factory fitted wheel pilot version and it worked fine for 10 plus years with annual channel crossings but we did tend to reef well before say a Hallberg 34 would . That said I have read of wheel pilots failing on Bav36 when crossing Biscay. I assume you don’t intend to trade up but if you did absence of autopilot might influence some buyers however doubt you would recoup costs but many buyers might just accept the wheelpilot version as that’s what tends to be out there as factory fit -I think we just accepted we needed it and certainly worth the investment as means you can free the track or mainsheet when alone at helm without worry .personally would take new cheapest option (or change the boat)

 

[ylop]

I guess the choice might depend on where you intend to sail ,crew strength and conditions .

Well we won’t be sailing Biscay. For the forseable it will be anwhere from Cork to Shetland but most likely Clyde/Oban based. In general in good/sensible conditions (and heavily reefed when not). A very long term plan might involve Norway/Sweden/Baltics but that may not be the same boat by then.

personally would take new cheapest option (or change the boat)

Changing the boat seems an extreme option! But I think the signs are all pointing to wheelpilot as being an acceptable compromise. (Graham feel free to drop me a PM about yours - but I suspect because of the way it’s cheaper to buy as a package you’ll actually get a better price for it with someone who’s killed the drive).

 

[MontyMariner]

I think the signs are all pointing to wheelpilot as being an acceptable compromise.

Only if you don't expect too much from it, have very little play in your wheel to rudder linkage, your steering is featherlight and you don't sail solo!

 

[oilybilge]

I have looked at PyPilot and mostly discounted it. I’m not afraid of the electronics, although the engineering with the forces involved is probably pushing the limits of my comfort zone but I don’t think the user interface / experience is something my wife or kids would feel overly happy with compared to a red button to disengage on a “proper” head unit etc.

It's worth saying that you can make the pypilot control as simple or complicated as you like -- that's the beauty of it. I've just built one, and the control panel in the cockpit is literally going to be three buttons: engage/disengage, port, and starboard. If I want to do anything more advanced I can access it with my iPad or mobile.