Bobc
Well-Known Member
I've got an Asymmetric Canoe. Totally awsome boat BUT...not sure it's quite what Dan is after here.
Ultimate upwind efficiency
- Thread starter Greenheart
- Start date
I've got an Asymmetric Canoe. Totally awsome boat BUT...not sure it's quite what Dan is after here.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Thanks Sailfree, that's all good sound advice. I last went to the dinghy show at Crystal Palace, in 1986... 
Quote: (CLP) My swimming improved dramatically while sailing these craft.
That's interesting, as well as indicative!
Looking at K1 Youtube footage, the design looks as if it's meant to ape the characteristics of much larger yachts. Slick.
I suppose the best upwind progress is always made by boats that present an ideal aerofoil shape - so, staying upright, staying on course and attending to sail trim, are obvious essentials.
And, any boat whose hull form/sailplan gives the crew a lot to do just staying out of the drink, must prevent these basics being taken care of easily. The fact that the quickest boats achieve startling pace at cost to the crew's ease and comfort, doesn't make me want one!
But I'll be happy to wear a trapeze harness if it'll keep a dinghy designed without one, at her theoretical peak of efficiency.
Very true, what's been said about sailing when not racing, feeling faster than it may actually be. I think my main concern is to avoid picking up a boat which repays my not-very-gifted steering and sail trimming, with painfully flat, unproductive tacks.
The glum memory of being 'left for dead' by other dinghies in normal conditions when I was doing my best, makes me very wary of safe, practical choices, so I've begun to consider possibly less suitable designs that prioritise performance. Even though I myself prioritise comfort and a dry space for the sandwiches!
Still hoping the Albacore is a smart compromise, which those ratings imply needn't be unrewarding...other suggestions welcome.
Quote: (CLP) My swimming improved dramatically while sailing these craft.
That's interesting, as well as indicative!
Looking at K1 Youtube footage, the design looks as if it's meant to ape the characteristics of much larger yachts. Slick.
I suppose the best upwind progress is always made by boats that present an ideal aerofoil shape - so, staying upright, staying on course and attending to sail trim, are obvious essentials.
And, any boat whose hull form/sailplan gives the crew a lot to do just staying out of the drink, must prevent these basics being taken care of easily. The fact that the quickest boats achieve startling pace at cost to the crew's ease and comfort, doesn't make me want one!
But I'll be happy to wear a trapeze harness if it'll keep a dinghy designed without one, at her theoretical peak of efficiency.
Very true, what's been said about sailing when not racing, feeling faster than it may actually be. I think my main concern is to avoid picking up a boat which repays my not-very-gifted steering and sail trimming, with painfully flat, unproductive tacks.
The glum memory of being 'left for dead' by other dinghies in normal conditions when I was doing my best, makes me very wary of safe, practical choices, so I've begun to consider possibly less suitable designs that prioritise performance. Even though I myself prioritise comfort and a dry space for the sandwiches!
Still hoping the Albacore is a smart compromise, which those ratings imply needn't be unrewarding...other suggestions welcome.
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Bobc
Well-Known Member
One more suggestion:-
If you want to sail single-handed, then you could do a lot worse tha a Contender. Relatively easy to sail and quite forgiving, only the one sail and not too much string to pull, swivelling centreboard so easy or launch/recovery. Plenty about for sale.
If you want to sail single-handed, then you could do a lot worse tha a Contender. Relatively easy to sail and quite forgiving, only the one sail and not too much string to pull, swivelling centreboard so easy or launch/recovery. Plenty about for sale.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
And the hull shape is sort of scaled-down Flying Dutchman, so no slouch. I do remember see more than a few lying flat though.
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Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I had that wonderful Contender photo as my desktop for a couple of years! I know the Garda 2004 Contender video, backwards.
I wonder if there isn't a mischievous streak in some of these posts, though!
I was advised twenty years ago to get a wetsuit before even trying a Contender. And, I believe the International Canoe is even more inclined to toss the helm o/b!
I want a boat with dry stowage for tent and hamper, and enough stability not to be catastrophically oversensitive to where a girlfriend parks herself after her second glass.
The trouble being, that such stable boats as Wayfarers, don't really seem to interest the assiduous helmsman...while boats that have been arranged to reward his care and physical input, tend to have gambled away their comfort in doing so.
So, I'm thinking of a cruising design that isn't just safe. I do have a wetsuit, but I'd prefer not to need it every time out! And, in order to cruise serious distances, some serious upwind ability is needed.
Instinct tells me I'll end up supplementing a standard, elderly Albacore with an experimental oversize foretriangle and a weighted centreboard! I'll be sure to post the photos here...
I wonder if there isn't a mischievous streak in some of these posts, though!
I was advised twenty years ago to get a wetsuit before even trying a Contender. And, I believe the International Canoe is even more inclined to toss the helm o/b!I want a boat with dry stowage for tent and hamper, and enough stability not to be catastrophically oversensitive to where a girlfriend parks herself after her second glass.
The trouble being, that such stable boats as Wayfarers, don't really seem to interest the assiduous helmsman...while boats that have been arranged to reward his care and physical input, tend to have gambled away their comfort in doing so.
So, I'm thinking of a cruising design that isn't just safe. I do have a wetsuit, but I'd prefer not to need it every time out! And, in order to cruise serious distances, some serious upwind ability is needed.
Instinct tells me I'll end up supplementing a standard, elderly Albacore with an experimental oversize foretriangle and a weighted centreboard! I'll be sure to post the photos here...
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Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I used to have a Wanderer, sort of down scaled Wayfarer. Good for what you're looking for. OK upwind, but no sports car. There are camping conversions available too. Margaret Dye sailed one immense distances.
craic
New Member
420 was a LOT of fun. Cheap, lively, comfy enough, somewhat seagoing and crew adjustable (two mast positions). I almost drowned BTW after falling out, but nevertheless she is a grand little boat.
But it's an age thing. I wouldn't attempt Fastnet in a 420 any more. Today my money is on a SeaRaider, she's a real witch to windward. But needs -and takes- a lot of wind, the more the better. Planes with the right crew. From F6 up you can fill the waterballast tank and she turns selfrighting like a keeler. Or you can take the main down and have tremendous fun in heavy weather under jib and mizzen alone.
But it's an age thing. I wouldn't attempt Fastnet in a 420 any more. Today my money is on a SeaRaider, she's a real witch to windward. But needs -and takes- a lot of wind, the more the better. Planes with the right crew. From F6 up you can fill the waterballast tank and she turns selfrighting like a keeler. Or you can take the main down and have tremendous fun in heavy weather under jib and mizzen alone.
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Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Any more?! You mean at some time you DID sail the Fastnet race, in a 420?
You have my respect!Do you by any chance recollect any occasions when, in spite of your lighter hull, bigger sails and personal indomitable courage, a lardy old Albacore went swishing past your 420 and beat you across the line? I can't picture it myself, but the figures support the idea!
The SeaRaider is a lovely boat. Great to see classic styling in robust modern construction, and combining reasonable performance with some practical cruising comfort.
westernman
Well-Known Member
With the tanks empty her lightweight hull (325kg)
The 420 will be much much easier to haul up the slip single handed!
Iain C
Well-Known Member
Dan
I hate to say this, but as an experienced dinghy sailor I think I can say that you are asking the impossible. Unless it's the warmest summer day you cannot get a performance dinghy upwind, without hanging your bum over the side or dangling off a wire and expect to stay dry. Performance dinghies do not have room for a hamper and a tent!
Buggering about with the sailplan is not going to improve performance, the designer will have done the sums already. And neither is a weighted centreboard. The way to get a dinghy upwind quickly is to sail it FLAT. Not 15 degrees of heel, or 7, or 5 degrees, you need to sail it at 0 degrees. And at 0 degrees a weighted board is doing nothing whatsoever apart from adding inertia and slowing your boat down.
If you really want to have a weighted centreboard, anti inversion devices and somewhere to stick a tent, buy a Flying Fifteen and chainsaw some storage bins into it.
Get out there and sail a few boats and get a few pointers and you will soon be able to make a more informed decision about which direction you want to go. You may also feel happier about getting something with higher designed-in performance rather than trying to turbocharge an unsuitable boat. And stop looking at PY's, they really do tell you very little.
Boat design is all about compromise...you are asking for the yachty equivalent of an easily handled planing sportsboat that's easily handled on your own, sleeps 8, is trailerable, shallow draught and ideal for bluewater cruising.
If you want to have a go in a Fireball or even a 49er PM me and it can be arranged!
I hate to say this, but as an experienced dinghy sailor I think I can say that you are asking the impossible. Unless it's the warmest summer day you cannot get a performance dinghy upwind, without hanging your bum over the side or dangling off a wire and expect to stay dry. Performance dinghies do not have room for a hamper and a tent!
Buggering about with the sailplan is not going to improve performance, the designer will have done the sums already. And neither is a weighted centreboard. The way to get a dinghy upwind quickly is to sail it FLAT. Not 15 degrees of heel, or 7, or 5 degrees, you need to sail it at 0 degrees. And at 0 degrees a weighted board is doing nothing whatsoever apart from adding inertia and slowing your boat down.
If you really want to have a weighted centreboard, anti inversion devices and somewhere to stick a tent, buy a Flying Fifteen and chainsaw some storage bins into it.
Get out there and sail a few boats and get a few pointers and you will soon be able to make a more informed decision about which direction you want to go. You may also feel happier about getting something with higher designed-in performance rather than trying to turbocharge an unsuitable boat. And stop looking at PY's, they really do tell you very little.
Boat design is all about compromise...you are asking for the yachty equivalent of an easily handled planing sportsboat that's easily handled on your own, sleeps 8, is trailerable, shallow draught and ideal for bluewater cruising.
If you want to have a go in a Fireball or even a 49er PM me and it can be arranged!
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
Just want to point out that the Albacore is faster than a 420 because of a longer waterline length and more sail area. The 420 class site seems to have the wrong sail area quoted. Harken state it is 7.4m2 for the mainsail and 2.8m2 for the jib and that feels about right.
Certainly I think that an Albacore can adequately sail to it's handicap. I'm thinking along the same lines as you, which is why I'm thinking of an Albacore. Did test sail an X1 yesterday and although it is very fast and comfortable (PY=950), it doesn't have other family friendly features I want.
I know an RS Venture or Wayfarer meets the family requirements the best, but they are damn heavy.....
Certainly I think that an Albacore can adequately sail to it's handicap. I'm thinking along the same lines as you, which is why I'm thinking of an Albacore. Did test sail an X1 yesterday and although it is very fast and comfortable (PY=950), it doesn't have other family friendly features I want.
I know an RS Venture or Wayfarer meets the family requirements the best, but they are damn heavy.....
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Can't say fairer than that.
Thanks, Iain, I believe you, and that's a damned decent offer, cheers.
And, as you say, once I've tried a few more boats, I'm much more likely to settle for one of the vastly successful cruisers, racers, or moderate in-betweens, all of which more-or-less satisfy everyone.
Although, it may not stop me trying to improve on them!
Thanks, Iain, I believe you, and that's a damned decent offer, cheers.
And, as you say, once I've tried a few more boats, I'm much more likely to settle for one of the vastly successful cruisers, racers, or moderate in-betweens, all of which more-or-less satisfy everyone.
Although, it may not stop me trying to improve on them!
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Well sailed, an Albacore will do well on handicap in very light wind conditions - and the 420 will do pants. In any breeze the 420 will hammer an Albacore on handicap as it will plane away, upwind as well as downwind if really blowing (eg the 420 open at Itchenor in 25-30 knots a few years back).
But neither is ultimately a fast boat - and the OP's requirements seem a bit infeasible anyway.
Clearly Iain C knows the subject and great advice - plus the best and most unlikely boat combination in a signature - Sabre 27 and a 49er ! Wow.
Iain C
Well-Known Member
Right, I've been thinking about this overnight. You CAN turbocharge a dinghy if you do it right...I've done it with a Cherub, see below. However, it was within class rules (when they went twin-wire in 2005), it needs to be done properly (to stick a bigger jib on without moving the mast back I had to lengthen the deck to get a bigger J measurment) and there will always be compromises. Although perfectly balanced, because the mast was still a bit far forward, there was a lot of area high up in the main so bearaways were always a bit exciting..."back of the bus" being the operative words! Full details here. http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/boats/2644ic
It's also quite easy to make foils...I made a new rudder as part of the Cherub conversion, and I'm currently gluing my Sabre rudder back together following a tang failure (rudder surgery topics here if anyone is interested http://www.sabre27.org.uk/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2)
So, you want something that's fairly forgiving, family friendly...
Carries gear OK
Goes upwind well
Does not need a wetsuit
Won't fall over on a mooring.
So...
Buy an old, sub £1000 Flying Fifteen. Move the aft cockpit bulkhead back as far as the rudder tube to make room for your family and a hamper.. Install a GRP well into the large foredeck (with a drain pipe into the cockpit) and add a sea-kayak style cnavas cover to keep your kit dry. The F15's achilles heel is the stupid foil design...the rudder is heavy and the keel inefficient (lots of leeway). So make a proper balanced spade rudder, and if you are keen, install daggerboard slots in the floor just forward of the keel to sort the leeway out. You probably only need one foil, and one blanking plug. Tack an asymmetric down in front of the existing chute mouth (RS400 or Buzz should be about right) and I don't think you'd even need a pole. You could even stick an outboard bracket on the back if you want, or a trapeze, and you should end up with a fairly vice-free, dry, stable cruising dinghy/keelboat hybrid that would tick all your boxes, go fast on all points of sail, and also behave itself on a mooring. The genoa roller furls anyway, and it would be easy to add reefing points to the main.
You never know, it might just work!
It's also quite easy to make foils...I made a new rudder as part of the Cherub conversion, and I'm currently gluing my Sabre rudder back together following a tang failure (rudder surgery topics here if anyone is interested http://www.sabre27.org.uk/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2)
So, you want something that's fairly forgiving, family friendly...
Carries gear OK
Goes upwind well
Does not need a wetsuit
Won't fall over on a mooring.
So...
Buy an old, sub £1000 Flying Fifteen. Move the aft cockpit bulkhead back as far as the rudder tube to make room for your family and a hamper.. Install a GRP well into the large foredeck (with a drain pipe into the cockpit) and add a sea-kayak style cnavas cover to keep your kit dry. The F15's achilles heel is the stupid foil design...the rudder is heavy and the keel inefficient (lots of leeway). So make a proper balanced spade rudder, and if you are keen, install daggerboard slots in the floor just forward of the keel to sort the leeway out. You probably only need one foil, and one blanking plug. Tack an asymmetric down in front of the existing chute mouth (RS400 or Buzz should be about right) and I don't think you'd even need a pole. You could even stick an outboard bracket on the back if you want, or a trapeze, and you should end up with a fairly vice-free, dry, stable cruising dinghy/keelboat hybrid that would tick all your boxes, go fast on all points of sail, and also behave itself on a mooring. The genoa roller furls anyway, and it would be easy to add reefing points to the main.
You never know, it might just work!
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
I just spent half an hour reading Iain C's Cherub-rebuild... WOW!
Mr C, you're clearly au fait with high-tech materials, which I can't always follow, but your practical application of an idea into a slick, workable result, is something we can all admire. I specially like your recycling of sunken/broken/non-standard bits, into a pristine finished product that looks like Audi engineering.
And, you had so nearly persuaded me not to mess about with established designs!
Believe me, I'd given long thought to the Flying Fifteen option - lots of sad old cheapies out there, which would more easily reward conversion than restoration. And if it weren't for the cost of convenient moorings, (and that unbeachable FF keel and vulnerable rudder), I might still be thinking that way.
I've certainly taken one point to heart; there's little point starting with a slow, hefty old training/family dinghy, and trying to rig thrilling performance into it. While your Cherub may now be twice the boat it was, in truth it was no slug to begin with, surely?
So...for my own odd blend of requirements, I'm thinking once again along Seajet's well-argued recommendation of the Osprey. Though, the affordable elderly ones with the stern tank, look strangely cramped compared with later boats, which appear to be a foot wider.
But your boldness with power-tools, kevlar and carbon persuade me to splash out and have a go at some rearrangement. Actually, the standard Osprey is easily fast enough for me, so my changes would be a gentle de-tune and rebuild, to find dry space for wallet, chart and sandwiches etc...and...a sheltered SWMBO's picnic seat raised off the cockpit floor, that won't require her to endure constant bow-wave drenchings. I know, it'd be much easier to change SWMBOs...
Hmm, maybe some of those racks, too, made from an old mast (an idea which I'd had, and you have given the ultimate credential of actually building!)...
...I'll try to stop thinking, till I've got a hull and rig to work on!
Cheers.
Mr C, you're clearly au fait with high-tech materials, which I can't always follow, but your practical application of an idea into a slick, workable result, is something we can all admire. I specially like your recycling of sunken/broken/non-standard bits, into a pristine finished product that looks like Audi engineering.
And, you had so nearly persuaded me not to mess about with established designs!
Believe me, I'd given long thought to the Flying Fifteen option - lots of sad old cheapies out there, which would more easily reward conversion than restoration. And if it weren't for the cost of convenient moorings, (and that unbeachable FF keel and vulnerable rudder), I might still be thinking that way.
I've certainly taken one point to heart; there's little point starting with a slow, hefty old training/family dinghy, and trying to rig thrilling performance into it. While your Cherub may now be twice the boat it was, in truth it was no slug to begin with, surely?
So...for my own odd blend of requirements, I'm thinking once again along Seajet's well-argued recommendation of the Osprey. Though, the affordable elderly ones with the stern tank, look strangely cramped compared with later boats, which appear to be a foot wider.
But your boldness with power-tools, kevlar and carbon persuade me to splash out and have a go at some rearrangement. Actually, the standard Osprey is easily fast enough for me, so my changes would be a gentle de-tune and rebuild, to find dry space for wallet, chart and sandwiches etc...and...a sheltered SWMBO's picnic seat raised off the cockpit floor, that won't require her to endure constant bow-wave drenchings. I know, it'd be much easier to change SWMBOs...
Hmm, maybe some of those racks, too, made from an old mast (an idea which I'd had, and you have given the ultimate credential of actually building!)...
...I'll try to stop thinking, till I've got a hull and rig to work on!
Cheers.
Iain C
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the compliments.
I guess what I was trying to say is that you cant just "stick a bigger rig on" and expect performance to increase. The Cherub gained more sail area, but also a new mast, with more wire to hold it up, increased beam, additional trapezes, more LOA and beefed up foils and internal structure to cope. But although it made sailing the boat more fun for 90% of the time, it lost the ability to absolutly rip it in a F5 and above as the boat became a bit of a handful. And of course all the turbocharging added weight to a boat that was already overweight when I got it. Also, in light winds, no matter how much sail you have, it was still a 12' hole in the water and was still rubbish. But yes, the basic wetted bit did not change shape at all and was already a proven fast design. And the whole thing was done to the 2005 ruleset (apart from the hull, which I could have made narrower on the waterline to stop pitcpoles, but it would have been easier to just build a new one)
So basically if you change anything on an already proven design, there will be a trade off somewhere else and you don't want to end up ruining a decent boat with an experiment that does not work out. Many people still think that the magic of Cherub sailing was lost when the class went over to big sails and twin wires.
Audi engineering? In all the time I had that boat I broke a spreader (crew landed on it during a pitchpole) and a bowsprit (added some more carbon). In 18 months of high end Audi A4 ownership I had an oil pump assembly, 2 turbos and 4 injectors all die. Audi engineering is nothing short of rubbish!
I guess what I was trying to say is that you cant just "stick a bigger rig on" and expect performance to increase. The Cherub gained more sail area, but also a new mast, with more wire to hold it up, increased beam, additional trapezes, more LOA and beefed up foils and internal structure to cope. But although it made sailing the boat more fun for 90% of the time, it lost the ability to absolutly rip it in a F5 and above as the boat became a bit of a handful. And of course all the turbocharging added weight to a boat that was already overweight when I got it. Also, in light winds, no matter how much sail you have, it was still a 12' hole in the water and was still rubbish. But yes, the basic wetted bit did not change shape at all and was already a proven fast design. And the whole thing was done to the 2005 ruleset (apart from the hull, which I could have made narrower on the waterline to stop pitcpoles, but it would have been easier to just build a new one)
So basically if you change anything on an already proven design, there will be a trade off somewhere else and you don't want to end up ruining a decent boat with an experiment that does not work out. Many people still think that the magic of Cherub sailing was lost when the class went over to big sails and twin wires.
Audi engineering? In all the time I had that boat I broke a spreader (crew landed on it during a pitchpole) and a bowsprit (added some more carbon). In 18 months of high end Audi A4 ownership I had an oil pump assembly, 2 turbos and 4 injectors all die. Audi engineering is nothing short of rubbish!
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Sincerest apologies! It was intended as the highest compliment. How about...Lexus engineering?
A point you made here a while back, keeps echoing significantly between my ears - that to perform properly against a fresh breeze, the mast needs to be upright, and even a little heel begins to subtract from the ideal.
I've always known that, but somewhere over the years, I'd grown so used to not being able to keep the deck comfortably and efficiently flat, that I've been circumnavigating the issue.
So I guess the most effective pursuit of my original thought behind this thread, would be to control heeling of whatever class I sail, rather than changing or rearranging the boat itself to make up for resultant mishandling and lack of progress upwind.
A point you made here a while back, keeps echoing significantly between my ears - that to perform properly against a fresh breeze, the mast needs to be upright, and even a little heel begins to subtract from the ideal.
I've always known that, but somewhere over the years, I'd grown so used to not being able to keep the deck comfortably and efficiently flat, that I've been circumnavigating the issue.
So I guess the most effective pursuit of my original thought behind this thread, would be to control heeling of whatever class I sail, rather than changing or rearranging the boat itself to make up for resultant mishandling and lack of progress upwind.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
In the days when I sailed a dinghy (Fireball) I had "SAIL IT FLAT" written in several obvious places, in felt tip. It doesn't just apply athwartships, but fore and aft as well (most of the time).
contessaman
Well-Known Member
...well, look dan, I doubt its efficient but if you want to sail upwind with little or no effort theres nothing for it, you are going to need one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGCYaJbf0A
the concept does appear to work allthough its hardly elegant, trendy or fast.
the other option is to treat the problem not just the symptom; why is the wind always against you? you must have been taking something out of the collection pot in church...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGCYaJbf0A
the concept does appear to work allthough its hardly elegant, trendy or fast.
the other option is to treat the problem not just the symptom; why is the wind always against you? you must have been taking something out of the collection pot in church...
davidej
Well-Known Member
Fascinating
How do you define port and starboard tack etc for colregs?
Also those big blades whirring around in a marina must scare rigid any other boat within range!