Ultimate upwind efficiency

Twister_Ken said:
The Ozzie is, what?, a 60 year old design. Things have moved on more than somewhat since then.
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I have a soft spot for the Osprey, don't much like the 420/470. For modernish and sensible how about a Laser Stratos, or a Tasar, though you don't seem to see many Tasars in this country.

The thing with boats with inherently fast hulls is that you can always tame a fast boat by reefing or using smaller sails. You can't speed up a slow boat.
 
Indeed, things certainly have moved on since the Osprey was the new kid; and prematurely crusty old types like me, almost invariably disparage 'progress' because of its impact on the aesthetic side of design, from boats to cars to footwear.

Actually, though I'd readily get busy with sander and varnish, I'd prefer a GRP dinghy because I'm lazy at heart; but the appearance of skiffs and skiff-derived designs seems (I admit I'm assuming) to deliver a wayward skittishness and intrinsic instability which heavier, conventional hulls generally do not.

Advocates of speed at any cost, will never concede that stability is worth enduring sloth for; and I enjoy going fast too, but I'd prefer a design whose traditional efficiency quietly slices upwind, rather than a winged, flared, blink-and-you'll-capsize extreme machine.

Perhaps I'm misled, by Portsmouth Yardstick ratings? But it strikes me that considering the amazing differences in hull form, sail plan and weight/construction materials, isn't it surprising that the old Osprey isn't thoroughly embarrassed by designs like the RS boats?

On a different theme, does anyone have any word on 'gybing centreboards'? They seem like an obvious advantage if the adjustment is understood and accurately controllable. Is there a class in which it is standard equipment?
 
The OP doesn't say if they will be racing or not..
Single or double hander?
There are many quick boats about -off the wind, both single and double handers. On a reasonably balanced race course the PY numbers may or may not tell the story.
Older designs may tend to be slightly better upwind, less scary on downwind legs (yes- it is a simplification). More recent high performance dinghies may not have quite the up-wind performance of the old school stuff, but will generally comprehensively wipe out the older designs on downwind legs (assuming you use the kite..), planing easily.
If you're not racing - then planing "scary" high performance newer designs may not be worth investigating.? The Albacores & Solos I occasionally sail against are both good upwind.. Lots of choice?
 
Impressive as the 49er is (and it surely is!), I'm not sure where I'd keep my evening costume dry... :D

Thank you, Pagoda. This is the point, I think; I'm not bound by racing rules and I'll enjoy modifying whichever boat I buy, to suit my use.

I expect I'll be singlehanding a good deal, but I'm keen to avoid an una rig - I like the choice that a headsail (and spinnaker options) allow.

I may regularly carry friends with little or no sailing experience, and I don't want to subject them to the fear and discomfort of the trapeze - though I'll gladly fit a trapeze to a boat not designed to carry one, for my own use when singlehanding.

As Mr Wilson suggested above, I'm more than happy to consider a reefable two-hander, even if not intended for singlehanding.

Seems a pity to me: most racing boats are so singlemindedly competitive that they don't typically cater for the reefing requirements of lightweight or singlehanded users; reefing provision tends to be a DIY affair, rotten if, like me, the doer isn't a sailmaker/cutter/designer.

Nice to hear that the Albacore is a good 'upwinder'; it's a design I fancy very much.

Does any record like the PY ratings exist, which grades just the beating ability of many classes? I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to know which designs are best, at the part of sailing we all do most of!

It would be an interesting break-down of comparative performance characteristics - and an eye-opener for potential buyers. At the moment, word of mouth and advice by forum, is necessarily rather vague and open to class-loyal boasting! All welcome, though... :)
 
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dancrane said:
Impressive as the 49er is (and it surely is!), I'm not sure where I'd keep my evening costume dry... :D

Thank you, Pagoda. This is the point, I think; I'm not bound by racing rules and I'll enjoy modifying whichever boat I buy, to suit my use.

I expect I'll be singlehanding a good deal, but I'm keen to avoid an una rig - I like the choice that a headsail (and spinnaker options) allow.

I may regularly carry friends with little or no sailing experience, and I don't want to subject them to the fear and discomfort of the trapeze - though I'll gladly fit a trapeze to a boat not designed to carry one, for my own use when singlehanding.

As Mr Wilson suggested above, I'm more than happy to consider a reefable two-hander, even if not intended for singlehanding.

Seems a pity to me: most racing boats are so singlemindedly competitive that they don't typically cater for the reefing requirements of lightweight or singlehanded users; reefing provision tends to be a DIY affair, rotten if, like me, the doer isn't a sailmaker/cutter/designer.

Nice to hear that the Albacore is a good 'upwinder'; it's a design I fancy very much.

Does any record like the PY ratings exist, which grades just the beating ability of many classes? I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to know which designs are best, at the part of sailing we all do most of!

It would be an interesting break-down of comparative performance characteristics - and an eye-opener for potential buyers. At the moment, word of mouth and advice by forum, is necessarily rather vague and open to class-loyal boasting! All welcome, though... :)
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I haven't sailed against an Albacore which wasn't double handed, but they look stable and are better upwind than I am (RS Vareo). 420's I've seen sailed solo though not over f4. Off wind I do better...
I reckon you need to decide if you want exciting single handing sailing - or 2 handed stuff. If you want "virgins" on board then it needs to be less scary.
Just common sense.

Graeme
 
Interesting, that the Albacore may be considerably more able upwind, than the RS Vareo, particularly as (I presume) the high off-wind performance and light weight of the Vareo must sprint away from the Alb downwind; yet overall, their Portsmouth numbers aren't wildly different.

Once again, I'm led to suppose that an Albacore with trapeze and asymmetric from an RS400, will be an all-purpose butt-kicker! :)
 
dancrane said:
Once again, I'm led to suppose that an Albacore with trapeze and asymmetric from an RS400, will be an all-purpose butt-kicker! :)
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Doubt it. Too full and rounded an underwater shape, and no flat planing surface. I know it was Uffa and he was a genius, but even so. Plus, empty it's a couple of hundredweight or more.

I can't help feeling if there was an all-round butt kicker from that era. it would still be selling in decent numbers. In your shoes, I might be looking for a Tasar.
 
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I really love the Tasar...but, I reckon it gives away a lot, for just a slight improvement on the Albacore's performance.

I mean, if one started with the very rugged Albacore...dropped its curvy beauty for a drip-dry flat-bottomed low-profile...took fifty kilos off its weight (and cut its resistance to damage, while reducing its weight-carrying ability)...lowered its freeboard to reduce its windage (and thereby cut dry stowage and spray shelter to nil)...gave the boat a rotating mast and fully-battened main for ideal aerodynamics...

...wouldn't you expect it to be more than just 4% faster, than when you started work? :eek::D

At least, that's how the Portsmouth Yardstick ratings indicate they generally compare. I read here recently that at a handicap racing club, Albacores regularly beat the Tasars! So, probably not a whole lot in it...
 
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Dan

Excuse the 49er promo, I'd not actually read that you wanted to know what boat to get, more that you were just asking which boats are the best upwind!

Without being funny, you can sit there all you like doing sums and looking at figures, and none of that will tell you what a boat FEELS like upwind. Don't get hung up on the RYA PY scheme either. It's a best guess at trying to level a very bumpy playing field.

For example, it's a medium breeze day with short Solent chop. I would not be surprised if an Albabarge could embarass a Fireball upwind. It's built that way for a reason...all that rocker and roundedness will take the waves beautifully where the bow transom of the Fireball will slam hopelessley. In the meantime a 49er has cracked off hugely and would appear to be going almost the wrong way but very quickly, and the Cherub crew are wishing their boat was longer or had a T foil after the umpteenth upwind pitchpole of the day. Bear away round the top mark onto a tight reach...the Albacore is nowhere, the Fireball is flying along as it can fly the pocket hanky kite, the 49er will also scream along under 2 sails and the Cherub will be still be pitchpoling knowing that they will never get downwind without the kite, but the leg is too tight to fly it.

Flatten the water a bit, make the reach broader and wind it up to a solid F5. The Albacore will now be nowhere upwind, although safe and dry. The Fireball will be in it's element, and able to probably take a F7 with some rig adjustement and a reasonable pair of sailors. The 49er will be in survival mode unless crewed by seriously good people, and the Cheub will be going very nicely upwind too. Bear away, and the Albabarge continues to surf along, but wishing for bigger waves. The Fireball will be flying along in the nice safe predictable fast way that Fireballs do. The 49er will be in proper code brown survival mode and really hoping there's no gusts or big waves. The Cherub will be catching the 49er with only about the last foot of the boat wet and most of the daggerboard out the water and delirious screams coming from the crew enjoying the ride of thier life.

Trying to level that playing field with a number that has no control for wind strenths or sea state is very, very tricky. Bear in mind that the PY system relies on clubs returning race results too for the numbers to be calculated. So...whilst I can usually keep my 49er the right way up in average conditions at my inland club, I'm sailing the boat nowhere near it's potential so technically I am dragging the results down a bit PY wise, and the inverse might be true about Solos at my club. And with regards to PYs, I would not dream of sailing the Fireball in anything less than a F3, that's 49er territory, however I have won pursuit races in the FB when it's honking as the PY is very generous to the boat, which is undoubtedly a rocket ship in big breeze (and frequently the only class left sailing!)

Rather than thinking about chopping an existing design about, why not just try a few more classes first, and have a serious think about exactly what it is you want? It's impossible to compare an Albacore and a Tasar by a PY number...the whole point of a Tasar was for Bethwaite to show that with minimal weight and an innovative rotating rig, it was possible to get round a course almost as fast as a spinnaker boat sailing the angles. But with no kite, crew skill levels could be much lower. The Albacore was designed as a very safe, very seaworthy sea boat for choppy water.

You could just look at getting a boat that you would be OK with in light winds (Fireball perhaps) and having a cut down suit for breezy stuff. Or you could spend the time you would have spent modifying the boat, sailing it instead and be able to handle it in bigger breeze! Chopping a boat about is a big job...putting an RS400 pole and kite/chute into an Albacore bow tank won't be easy...or cheap!
 
Thank you Iain; I know you're right.

Pity there can't be a three-phase PY scheme - by which each class is graded in light, moderate and strong breezes.

I only read the ratings list for an overall-average impression. I know the figures may misrepresent a design's virtues.

Clearly you're a Fireball fan. I like their simple, extreme style, though I think I was turned off twenty-five years ago when I read what a cold, wet boat it could be in other than warm climates! I know the same goes for most quick dinghies though.

I'm strongly attracted to the Albacore, as a versatile, seaworthy little vessel; it appears to make a practical and not unrewarding coastal cruiser at minimal expense, and I was excited by its figures appearing to suggest very fair performance for the type.

But I started the thread, wondering if anyone could particularly recommend a class that points high, isn't a pain to keep flat, and doesn't require Ainslie at the helm. Skiffs, cats and foilers are too weight-conscious for my purpose.

I know a day spent actually sailing, is worth ten years reading performance statistics. ;)
 
No such thing as a cold, wet boat, just a sailor wearing the wrong gear!

I think the Albacore would suit you well from what you have said, a really great sea boat. But you might want to consider a Laser 2000 which (whilst not really being my thing) is marketed as a "do anything" design and is one of the very few classes which actually does it.
 
Sorry, I'm still droning on about P.Y. vs real-world...

Here's a link to a fine bit of wild sailing, barely under control most of the time, by a 420 (PY 1087). Reckoned to have been a force eight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8NwT9JBQJk&feature=related

She's certainly flying, around the one-minute-five mark. Nice waves!

How, I wonder, is this trapeze boat (which is 30 kilos lighter than the Albacore, and carries more upwind sail, plus a spinnaker), rated as several points slower than the heavy, staid-seeming, unspectacular Alb?

If there's one thing about the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme I easily see, it's that the ratings are based on average results, from races in which various classes shared similar wind and wave conditions, and sailed an identical route.

But it's hard to accept that the average element means that 420s and Lasers may often sprint home ahead of the Alb, but that the Alb, on average, somehow more often beats them. Or...

...despite the fact that boats like the Laser (PY 1078) really fly downwind in a fresh breeze, while round-bilge heavyweights clumsily churn up a frothing bow-wave they can't easily plane over...nevertheless, at some point in these same races, does the 'slow-boat' prove itself amazingly proficient, ending up rated as faster?

My point being, can I assume the Albacore is an example of what I started by asking about: no downhill flyer, but extremely able upwind? It's hard to believe the Alb's seaworthiness alone makes it quicker than the 420 in rough water like the Youtube footage above.

If I seem to be trying to convince myself, it's because I am. I can't quite make sense of it (though IainC's race descriptions are very believable), but I think I want an Albacore, regardless of other classes' show-boating strengths. It seems to be like the steady, fat guy who can somehow keep running when the sprightly lightweights are worn out!

Or, perhaps Albacore crews are older, wily types, better experienced at finding shorter ways round the marks! :)
 
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dancrane said:
Here's a link to a fine bit of wild sailing, barely under control most of the time, by a 420 (PY 1087). Reckoned to have been a force eight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8NwT9JBQJk&feature=related

She's certainly flying, around the one-minute-five mark. Nice waves!

How, I wonder, is this trapeze boat (which is 30 kilos lighter than the Albacore, and carries more upwind sail, plus a spinnaker), rated as several points slower than the heavy, staid-seeming, unspectacular Alb?

If there's one thing about the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme I easily see, it's that the ratings are based on average results, from races in which various classes shared similar wind and wave conditions, and sailed an identical route.

But it's hard to accept that the average element means that 420s and Lasers may often sprint home ahead of the Alb, but that the Alb, on average, somehow more often beats them. Or...

...despite the fact that boats like the Laser (PY 1078) really fly downwind in a fresh breeze, while round-bilge heavyweights clumsily churn up a frothing bow-wave they can't easily plane over...nevertheless, at some point in these same races, does the 'slow-boat' prove itself amazingly proficient, ending up rated as faster?

My point being, can I assume the Albacore is an example of what I started by asking about: no downhill flyer, but extremely able upwind? It's hard to believe the Alb's seaworthiness alone makes it quicker than the 420 in rough water like the Youtube footage above.

If I seem to be trying to convince myself, it's because I am. I can't quite make sense of it (though IainC's race descriptions are very believable), but I think I want an Albacore, regardless of other classes' show-boating strengths. It seems to be like the steady, fat guy who can somehow keep running when the sprightly lightweights are worn out!

Or, perhaps Albacore crews are older, wily types, better experienced at finding shorter ways round the marks! :)
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Your quandary maybe lies in the nature of the Portsmouth Yardstick rating. What is assessed is the ability of the boats and the crew in a variety of races on different waters, in different weathers, provided the clubs concerned make accurate observations and submit returns. It's worth a careful read of the PY background before believing any number is a sacrosanct objective measure of a boat's performance potential. Try here and its associated subpages as a start.

If you want an Albacore, just buy one, but I'd suggest if you're really looking for an upwind demon in the relatively flat waters of Chi Hbr, you look for something more sporty. You could stand on the balcony of HISC during a mixed fleet race, with a pair of bins and see what boats turn the windward mark first.
 
If you ignore the "skiffy-type" boats (which I would recommend that you do for what you want), then to get upwind well, you really need a long waterline, an easily-driven hull, and something that doesn't weigh half a ton.

My thoughts are:-

If you want single trapeze, then 505, FD, Hornet, Javelin, Osprey

If you want a double sit-out boat, then Albacore, Wayfarer,

Or if a keelboal will do, then the RS K6 is very sweet (but a Flying 15 is also a good option).
 
Bobc said:
If you ignore the "skiffy-type" boats (which I would recommend that you do for what you want), then to get upwind well, you really need a long waterline, an easily-driven hull, and something that doesn't weigh half a ton.

then the RS K6 is very sweet
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The K1 is very much an upwind boat too.
 
There's also a new boat been launched recently called something like the X1 Riverboat. That could be worth a look.

Another very sweet 2-sail sit-out boat to consider would be the Cirrus Icon. It's based on the Aussie NS14 but with a bigger rig.
 
I sailed an Internation Canoe for a few years, it was awesome upwind but not so good downwind although that's changed as they can now fly an assymetric kite. I also sailed an RS 600 for a while which was great fun. My swimming improved dramatically while sailing these craft.
 
If you want to sail fast upwind buy any "fast" boat - if you do not intend to race you can kid yourself that you are going faster than Cambell in Bluebird whatever boat you are sailing.

If you really want to sail "fast" do what Ken says go and watch for the fastest to the first mark but remember that for most of us the faster the boat the more time spent swimming if you are really trying.

The only measure of "fast" sailing in my book is racing - join a club and decide which of the classes they sail suit you but remember the situation of the club helps determine the boat. Winds and Wave say off Shoreham would suggest a different boat to say inland at Datchet Water or Grafham. Also decide if you want to sail in most conditions or only on the ideal conditions and hence say once a year!

I went to the local club, saw what clases they raced, looked at which ones were popular and seemed a friendly bunch then finally decided on a boat which would maximise our sailing time on the basis that most UK weather is cr ap!!- too windy - too rough or no wind!!

Final consideration is marketing. RS's and Laser series of boats are v good but if you want to race competitively all sails and spares must be supplied by the manufacturer. Hence many cheaper secondhand boats as a number opt sell old boat to buy a new replacement as the high cost of new sails and other bits tends to encourage that.

Dependant on your timing there is LIB at Excel in January that has a dinghy section and the Dinghy show at Alexandra Palace in spring 2012.
 
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