Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
Sorry mis-understood, trouble is that Imray folio’s don’t cover the area that I sail on. I think they do some for Scotland, but don’t think they cover the whole area.
UKHO want to drop small craft folio charts
- Thread starter Cantata
- Start date
Sorry mis-understood, trouble is that Imray folio’s don’t cover the area that I sail on. I think they do some for Scotland, but don’t think they cover the whole area.
Topcat47
Well-Known Member
Due to the size of plotter screens, you lose a lot of detail when you zoom out. My iPad doesn't show much in the way of detail until I've zoomed in so an area representing about 5/600m (or yard if you're a Brexiteer). This is inconvenient in coastal waters, where I mostly sail. Once off-shore, it's pretty hopeless. Add that to the 80aH 12 volt service Battery on Snark and you'll see why I favour Paper charts. Not everyone who sails has a huge vessel with a vast Battery bank, capable of supporting the electronic redundancy quoted earlier.
I actually enjoy manually plotting my position and regularly check my DR and EP against the GPS readout. I like the confidence it gives me. Also I like the ability to see my CMG during a long passage without scrolling through a load of functions on an electronic chart.
I actually enjoy manually plotting my position and regularly check my DR and EP against the GPS readout. I like the confidence it gives me. Also I like the ability to see my CMG during a long passage without scrolling through a load of functions on an electronic chart.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
Quite I - as Chief Engineer in charge of stuff like Electrics- am instructing Navigator to turn off Chart Plotter on long passages with nothing to hit. She always has paper version on wheelhouse chart board as is quite happy to take lat and long from GPS enabled radio, or even briefly start the Plotter, and hand plot every hour or so. Agrees it declutters the senses. She likes the folio size but off Brittany we put up with Imray C series
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I was watching an American video of a Garmin chartplotter & its waypoint & auto routing functions today. (I have one on order, having decided to succumb to such new technology- Is the earth really banana shaped?). The demonstrator was showing the auto route function. Considering that the same video mentioned places in America in the demonstration, I think that you may be out of date with your info.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I've said it before and I'll say it again - paper and electronic charts are different products with different use-cases. Neither is "better" than the other - that's like saying apples are better than oranges!
ELectronic products are excellent for real time, situational awareness, and for operational navigation.
Paper products are excellent for overview and planning purposes.
Both CAN be used in all roles, but sub-optimally. If I want to study an area so that I know what hazards are out there, and what the best routes to avoid dangers are, then paper charts are what I want - they cover the necessary large area, and I can see everything at a glance. If I want to be aware of what is in my immediate vicinity and use facilities like route following, then electronic charts are what I want.
Of course I CAN find my position on a paper chart, either by plotting a GPS location or by using traditional techniques. It works, but on a day-to-day basis, I'll use the chart plotter - but that doesn't make the paper chart any less useful as a backup.
Of course, I can pore over a small screen to work out a route or to get an overview of an area, but it's much easier and causes less eye-strain if I use a paper chart.
If I want to discuss options for the next day's sailing with crew, a paper chart is far better than a chart plotter.
What I am less concerned about is regular updates. For the purposes where the apper chart beats the plotter, it isn't so vital that every navigational mark be in exactly the right location, and the general overview of features doesn't change that much.
If I were the UKHO, I'd continue the folios as a cost-effective way of providing charts for small craft, BUT I'd increase the interval between publishing new versions (while, of course, maintaining lists of updates for those who still use paper as their primary situational navigation tool).
ELectronic products are excellent for real time, situational awareness, and for operational navigation.
Paper products are excellent for overview and planning purposes.
Both CAN be used in all roles, but sub-optimally. If I want to study an area so that I know what hazards are out there, and what the best routes to avoid dangers are, then paper charts are what I want - they cover the necessary large area, and I can see everything at a glance. If I want to be aware of what is in my immediate vicinity and use facilities like route following, then electronic charts are what I want.
Of course I CAN find my position on a paper chart, either by plotting a GPS location or by using traditional techniques. It works, but on a day-to-day basis, I'll use the chart plotter - but that doesn't make the paper chart any less useful as a backup.
Of course, I can pore over a small screen to work out a route or to get an overview of an area, but it's much easier and causes less eye-strain if I use a paper chart.
If I want to discuss options for the next day's sailing with crew, a paper chart is far better than a chart plotter.
What I am less concerned about is regular updates. For the purposes where the apper chart beats the plotter, it isn't so vital that every navigational mark be in exactly the right location, and the general overview of features doesn't change that much.
If I were the UKHO, I'd continue the folios as a cost-effective way of providing charts for small craft, BUT I'd increase the interval between publishing new versions (while, of course, maintaining lists of updates for those who still use paper as their primary situational navigation tool).
dunedin
Well-Known Member
In all the cases I know of, the Admiralty Small Craft Folios include as much detailed (small scale) charting as the full Admiralty individual chart sheets - and massively more detailed than the Imray C series passage planning charts.
Taking one of your examples, Sound of Gigha:
* Admiralty Chart 2475 - 1:25,000 (Single sheet circa £25)
* Admiralty Small Craft Folio 5611 Sheet 2 - !:25,000 (set of 28 charts covering Mull of Kintyre to Ardnamurchan - £45 - i.e. less than 10% cost per sheet of single charts)
By comparison
* Imray C64 wide area chart - a massive 1:160,000 and hence largely useless for pilotage in Scottish waters, only for hops between major ports
* Imray Folios - do not cover Gigha (as far as I can see)
Clearly the superb Antares Charts cover a number of the Gigha anchorages in much more detail - but these do not seek to cover wide areas, and do not cover the main Sound of Gigha for example.
So for paper charts the Admiralty Small Chart Folios are great for providing detail and planning charts at a cost of less than £2 per chart, and Imray are not currently a viable alternative in many parts of the UK. The otherwise excellent NV Folios even less so.
And yes we can get (and I do have) every UK Admiralty chart on my phone and iPad - as well as having 3 extremely expensive sets of Navionics totalling circa £600 (their licensing doesn't allow one licence for iPad and two chart plotters!).
But in spite of using digital devices and microcomputers since they were first imported as 110V grey imports from the USA, the screen size of iPads and plotters still means I personally like to also have the opportunity to look at the wider perspective on paper.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I'd suggest "can be excellent". On the West Coast there really aren't any charts in the folios which are useful for planning.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Nah, gotta be laptop
Zoom in and out for detail rather than a pile of charts, switch between satellite and chart view to double check it all looks about right , ctrl alt to 3d Google maps to have a look at what the hills really look like for a guess at wind gusts down valleys , ctl tab again to marinetraffic density maps to see where the worst of the traffic is, adjust planned speed little up and down to check what average speed you need to keep the tide. All at Happy hour
Or paper if that's what makes more sense to you. Each to their own.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Each folio has a summary chart covering the whole area. Oddly some had this as sheet 1, some had as the final sheet - and bizarrely the Mull to Ardnamurchan one had only a half sheet in the Edition I have, but that is the only odd one.
The other 6 U.K. folios I have I think also have these summary planning charts, but not got to hand to check.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I find them too fiddly and too covered with chart outlines to be much use.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Has Plotter functionality diminished over time? My (now old) Standard Horizon plotter has the ability to zoom out and maintain the level of detail as when zoomed in. Also a Route Check facility which flags any hazard points along the route.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
I picked this up in Yachting Monthly (p6) and emailed the UKHO who replied straight away saying they'd forward my concerns.
If you'd like to email them as well - CustomerServices@UKHO.gov.uk, you never know, a few hundred messages might persuade them to rethink.
If you'd like to email them as well - CustomerServices@UKHO.gov.uk, you never know, a few hundred messages might persuade them to rethink.
Topcat47
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you are doing, I have an iPad running iSailor. If you zoom out to see the Eastern Solent, say, you lose a lot of the detail, including those bloody great eyesores installed to allow the carriers in and out of Pompey. Zoom back in and they miraculously re-appear. It'a a matter of scale. You can't display that degree of detail on a smaller scale. My iPad screen is 10", my mate's older Horizon is even smaller. The bigger the area you're looking at the less detail gets displayed.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
The article actually only stated what I claim for one manufacturer, which they do not name. I was misleading, apologies.
From https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/0...adly-feature-of-navigation-apps-and-plotters/
pagoda
Well-Known Member
Exactly.. if you don't like losing the folios and don't complain to UKHO then you will have to accept whatever comes next?