UKHO want to drop small craft folio charts
- Thread starter Cantata
- Start date
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
The plotter on our older boat is erratic, nothing to worry about, Ireland will be where it was last time, just aim off.
The plotter on our newer boat shuts down after a bit, a bit of a faff in exploring the s cornish creeks in daylight, and night passage to Brittany make landfall near some big visible lighthouses. So far so good.
Then last night in torrential rail, poorish visiblity and threatened F8 we move Bristol Channel boat from place on mud to place of port. Chart Plotter dead, cant see coast, cant see compass as both it and our glasses covered in rain, distant loom of town lights indeterminate as to which town. Find chart eventually but cant read readily as glasses smeared and damp and anyway we have no reference points. Suddenly realised that very strong spring tide was sweeping us into the Grounds. Oops! Excellent sailing if damp and visibility cleared when we passes split hill but boy did I miss that chart plotter and this in waters I have sailed for 35 years.
I like charts, but lets not poo poo chart plotters
The plotter on our newer boat shuts down after a bit, a bit of a faff in exploring the s cornish creeks in daylight, and night passage to Brittany make landfall near some big visible lighthouses. So far so good.
Then last night in torrential rail, poorish visiblity and threatened F8 we move Bristol Channel boat from place on mud to place of port. Chart Plotter dead, cant see coast, cant see compass as both it and our glasses covered in rain, distant loom of town lights indeterminate as to which town. Find chart eventually but cant read readily as glasses smeared and damp and anyway we have no reference points. Suddenly realised that very strong spring tide was sweeping us into the Grounds. Oops! Excellent sailing if damp and visibility cleared when we passes split hill but boy did I miss that chart plotter and this in waters I have sailed for 35 years.
I like charts, but lets not poo poo chart plotters
laika
Well-Known Member
Given the number of times we've done "paper vs electronic" do we need to go down that route again?
If you don't use paper charts, this doesn't affect you.
For those of us for whom paper-based chartwork is integral to the pastime of sailing I believe (those whose preference is paper but disagree, do chip in...) this is a Bad Thing.
The leisure folios are perfectly sized for a pleasure yacht's chart table. They provide a range of coverage for popular sailing areas which would be uneconomic for leisure boaters to acquire in paper format if the leisure folios didn't exist. Yes there's Imray but if the market is declining, how long will they exist?
Supporters of the free market might argue that if demand isn't there, why support the minority who want to use paper navigation?
I'll confess that my opposition to this is largely self-interest. Paper and pencil navigation is fundamental to my enjoyment of yachting. I think the key points for debate here are whether removal of the folio format will deprecate use of paper-based navigation by leisure boater and whether that is a bad thing
If you don't use paper charts, this doesn't affect you.
For those of us for whom paper-based chartwork is integral to the pastime of sailing I believe (those whose preference is paper but disagree, do chip in...) this is a Bad Thing.
The leisure folios are perfectly sized for a pleasure yacht's chart table. They provide a range of coverage for popular sailing areas which would be uneconomic for leisure boaters to acquire in paper format if the leisure folios didn't exist. Yes there's Imray but if the market is declining, how long will they exist?
Supporters of the free market might argue that if demand isn't there, why support the minority who want to use paper navigation?
I'll confess that my opposition to this is largely self-interest. Paper and pencil navigation is fundamental to my enjoyment of yachting. I think the key points for debate here are whether removal of the folio format will deprecate use of paper-based navigation by leisure boater and whether that is a bad thing
Halo
Well-Known Member
I was a guest on the bridge of a large cruise liner last week. I asked the Captain about paper charts. He said “we have some somewhere “ and opened a few empty drawers before finding a couple of old charts. He said these were only used as an exercise for cadets.
If commercial vessels are not using paper charts their days are numbered.
I do find the folios useful as all the relevant information is on the page whilst electronic charts have information at different layers.
If commercial vessels are not using paper charts their days are numbered.
I do find the folios useful as all the relevant information is on the page whilst electronic charts have information at different layers.
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
You make good points, I'm for no particular reason an Imray user so there is no immediate impact on me, however I am fundamentally of the opinion that I've emboldened above, Droggie isn't there to support leisure sailors' hobbies and pastimes.
GHA
Well-Known Member
I'd love to spend some time on a big ship bridge having a chat - find out what we do that winds them up most and not do it anymore
Though don't they have 2 completely separate ecdis systems if they want to go just electronic? Not really an option for us though I suspect paper will be around for a long time yet.
As for the paper/electronic - I suspect a lot as to do with age/experience/what your used to. After years of cad drawing electronic feels completely natural, hiding layers just makes life easier and no real chance of missing stuff. Easier to find the relevant notes as it's just a double click away instead of off to the side of a paper chart. Anything but north up just feels weird. For many suspect the exact opposite will be the case. No right or wrong. nd can't be many boats around without enough paper/pilot books with harbour charts to get you out of trouble should the unthinkable happen and everything goes blank.
One thing I'd really miss - having satellite images as charts, very handy for a lot of places
As is 3d google earth to see just what the hills etc look like round the anchorage when passage planning. Plus sasplanet to jump between sat/cmap/navionics to check if the charts are miles out or OK, off the beaten track anyway. The handful of luddites are missing out on tons of really useful stuff lw395
Well-Known Member
I like paper charts, but I haven't bought any new ones for quite a while.
What do we actually need, and what are we happy to pay for?
You can print off a lot of A3 screen grabs for a few quid?
What do we actually need, and what are we happy to pay for?
You can print off a lot of A3 screen grabs for a few quid?
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
£9.22 for a full set of West-of-Britain charts for MX Mariner, iirc.
I have a few leisure folios, but I don't like them much. Most aren't detailed enough for interesting places and not wide enough for passage planning. I use about half a dozen of the sheets, but mostly I use Imray plus proper some UKHO charts - Sound of Gigha, Loch na Keal & Loch Tuath, Little Cumbrae to the Cloch.
DoubleEnder
Well-Known Member
I wonder if print on demand might become available. OS do this for maps at various scales and you can centre the sheet on a chosen spot. I reckon that could be an economically viable compromise?
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
prv
Well-Known Member
Those are the "C-Series" large charts. I think by "Folio" he means the packs of chart-table-sized sheets, like https://www.imray.com/charts/Imray+...+-+Isle+of+Mull+and+Adjacent+Coasts/IC2800-1/
Pete
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, I have some ‘C’ charts, but the UKHO Folio charts are the perfect size for my chart table, and it’s only UKHO that produce Folio sized charts for the Irish Sea area.
flaming
Well-Known Member
When I saw this news my initial reaction was "oh no! The Folios are great!".
Then I stopped to think about the last time I actually navigated a boat using a paper chart. And it took a while to remember. And I think it was actually in 2006.
The reality is that the vast, vast majority of sailors now use chart plotters as their primary navigation tool. And if we're really honest, how many of us actually have a full set of in-date, corrected, charts sitting in our chart table just in case...?
On that basis, a few folded full size charts actually take up less storage space, and if you really need them in an emergency, you'll cope with the inconvenience of folding a chart to use it, just like we used to do before the folio charts were invented...
I do feel for those who prefer to navigate with pencil and paper, but in reality they are a tiny minority of sailors now, and the suggestion for "Print at home" charts is probably quite a good compromise to keep them going.
Then I stopped to think about the last time I actually navigated a boat using a paper chart. And it took a while to remember. And I think it was actually in 2006.
The reality is that the vast, vast majority of sailors now use chart plotters as their primary navigation tool. And if we're really honest, how many of us actually have a full set of in-date, corrected, charts sitting in our chart table just in case...?
On that basis, a few folded full size charts actually take up less storage space, and if you really need them in an emergency, you'll cope with the inconvenience of folding a chart to use it, just like we used to do before the folio charts were invented...
I do feel for those who prefer to navigate with pencil and paper, but in reality they are a tiny minority of sailors now, and the suggestion for "Print at home" charts is probably quite a good compromise to keep them going.
dom
Well-Known Member
My setup includes independent Navionics and C-Map systems (latter a few years out of date). I also carry even more out of date paper charts for emergencies; no use for buoyage, dredged channels, areas of shifting depths, etc.
Like most people if the primary system fails, I know I can switch to the iPad, iPhone, PC, or whatever as first line backup. The C-Map is only switched on a couple of times a year to see it works, and the paper charts rarely see the light of day. Paraphernalia such as dividers, parallel rules, Breton Plotter, etc. ...how do they work again?
Next up are the 'almanacs'; sure they're a mine of info, but a look at an iPad app for tides, a website for marina dets, and wind/tidal routing software for planning is much more efficient. In fact, I only renew the Reeds Almanac every three years or so, and I bet I'm not the only one.
Basically, the old published staples inc. charts, almanacs, tidal charts, colreg flashcards, etc. are dead. It's only a matter of time, with the only possible exception being the last one on that list !!
Like most people if the primary system fails, I know I can switch to the iPad, iPhone, PC, or whatever as first line backup. The C-Map is only switched on a couple of times a year to see it works, and the paper charts rarely see the light of day. Paraphernalia such as dividers, parallel rules, Breton Plotter, etc. ...how do they work again?
Next up are the 'almanacs'; sure they're a mine of info, but a look at an iPad app for tides, a website for marina dets, and wind/tidal routing software for planning is much more efficient. In fact, I only renew the Reeds Almanac every three years or so, and I bet I'm not the only one.
Basically, the old published staples inc. charts, almanacs, tidal charts, colreg flashcards, etc. are dead. It's only a matter of time, with the only possible exception being the last one on that list !!
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Coo. I never knew such things existed. I don't think I have ever seen them for sale.
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
Not sure if you were joking, but if you look on the Admiralty.co website you will find the full selection including No’s
5615. 5616. and 5617 which cover Scotland.
They are all A2 size so more manageable than full size charts on a smaller boat, they also show port and other useful info’.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Indeed. In forty years I have bought one new chart maybe two. Many summer sailors may be in a similar position, different if you cross an ocean I guess. I always thought the chart packs were excellent but I had already assembles my navigational canon so never actually bought one. This puts me in the position of not being able protest very much.
Like most folk, I go about largely on the plotter but there is one area that where charts will always be tops: planning and weighing up the overall picture. I always have a chart on the chart table but to say I am navigating with it would be vanity; I am just keeping an eye on the strategy, for tactics I gaze through the letter box of a plotter.
Lightwave395
Well-Known Member
That's what I use, brilliant and under 2/3rds the price of reeds
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Oh, I knew UKHO ones existed - as I wrote before - I have several on board. I didn't know that Imray did folios too.
Lightwave395
Well-Known Member
Of course not, I did buy a new up to date paper chart of the Quiberon bay area when I moved the boat there this year and it or another appropriate paper chart is always out on the chart table despite having a C90W plotter and both Android and Microsoft tablets too along with three GPS's excluding the mobile phone...