UK 'over-reliant' on GPS signals

[Lucky Duck]

BBC write up of a report from the Royal Academy of Engineering - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12668230 claiming the UK has become too dependant on GPS

As ever, the Daily Mail offers a more interesting take on things - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1364008/Satnav-Britain-paralysed-instant-cyber-terrorists.html

 

[Blue5]

BBC write up of a report from the Royal Academy of Engineering - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12668230 claiming the UK has become too dependant on GPS

As ever, the Daily Mail offers a more interesting take on things - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1364008/Satnav-Britain-paralysed-instant-cyber-terrorists.html

Aha, an opportunity, for all those using sat nav I can now offer lessons in how to read a paper map...................................................

Surprised it is news.............most sailors are aware of the over reliance of GPS and electronics

 

[AHoy2]

This makes interesting related reading:

http://www.loran.org/news/The Case for eLoran 1.0.pdf

http://www.loran.org/ILAArchive/eLoran Definition Document/eLoran Definition Document-1.0.pdf

Start saving to buy your latest navaids upgrade.

 

[electrosys]

This scare story couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Galileo prototype sats going live within the last few days ... ?

They'll need to do better than that to create a customer base.

 

[maxi77]

This scare story couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Galileo prototype sats going live within the last few days ... ?

They'll need to do better than that to create a customer base.

I was just about to suggest the same, now that the lauches are going to start there will be yet another outcry at the cost, and surprise surprise here is a good technical argument for spending the cash.

 

[AHoy2]

I was just about to suggest the same, now that the lauches are going to start there will be yet another outcry at the cost, and surprise surprise here is a good technical argument for spending the cash.

My reading of the report is just the opposite, that an alternative to GPS is required.

 

[maxi77]

My reading of the report is just the opposite, that an alternative to GPS is required.

And what is the European Galileo system if it is not an alternative to GPS. It will be a whole new constellation of sattelites and is supposed to offer better performance than GPS.

 

[electrosys]

My reading of the report is just the opposite, that an alternative to GPS is required.

Ask any barber if you need a haircut, and the answer is known beforehand.

Galileo is a service without any existing demand for it - billions have been spent on a system to provide a service - but one without any customers. (Shades of the Millenium Dome (?) - "we'll figure out what to use it for, once it's built" ...)

Now the system is proven and about to go live (although quite a few more sats are needed for the full service), attention appears to have turned towards considering who might actually use it. The existing US NavStar GPS system is perfectly adequate for most ordinary users, and accessing Galileo will require the purchase of a new receiver. Bit of a difficult sell, methinks.

I wonder how many people with a perfectly good NavStar receiver will be prepared to shell out for another one ? Do you know of anyone who is both a member of the AA and the RAC (just in case one should fail) ?

My guess is that we will be hearing many more reasons to 'go Galileo' in the coming months ...

 

[AHoy2]

And what is the European Galileo system if it is not an alternative to GPS. It will be a whole new constellation of sattelites and is supposed to offer better performance than GPS.

My error, what the report says and what I meant to say was "an alternative to satellite navigation systems" which both GPS and Galileo both are of course. Hence the references to eLoran.

 

[alant]

Aha, an opportunity, for all those using sat nav I can now offer lessons in how to read a paper map...................................................

Surprised it is news.............most sailors are aware of the over reliance of GPS and electronics

Surely, you mean "how to read" a 'Chart!

 

[savageseadog]

Ask any barber if you need a haircut, and the answer is known beforehand.

Galileo is a service without any existing demand for it - billions have been spent on a system to provide a service - but one without any customers. (Shades of the Millenium Dome (?) - "we'll figure out what to use it for, once it's built" ...)

Now the system is proven and about to go live (although quite a few more sats are needed for the full service), attention appears to have turned towards considering who might actually use it. The existing US NavStar GPS system is perfectly adequate for most ordinary users, and accessing Galileo will require the purchase of a new receiver. Bit of a difficult sell, methinks.

I wonder how many people with a perfectly good NavStar receiver will be prepared to shell out for another one ? Do you know of anyone who is both a member of the AA and the RAC (just in case one should fail) ?

My guess is that we will be hearing many more reasons to 'go Galileo' in the coming months ...

Galileo has come about because the EU and its governments want to use it for road charging and snooping at which point the USA will pipe up and demand money for GPS if they used that. Politically necessary I think.

 

[timbartlett]

This scare story couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Galileo prototype sats going live within the last few days ... ?

Galileo and EGNOS are tenuously related (they are both European, and they are both concerned with navigation and timing) but they are not the same thing at all.
And EGNOS has been operational for well over a year, (Since about October/November 2009) while Galileos operational date appears to be moving later at a rate of two or three years per year (i.e. it is further from operational now than it was five years ago.

And despite :-

Galileo has come about because the EU and its governments want to use it for road charging and snooping

, the main reason it is so far behind schedule is because the UK Labour Government -- the biggest snooper and money grubber of the lot -- was determined to make it fail.

PS The thing you spent a few hundred pounds on in your boat or car is not "a GPS". It's not even "a GPS receiver". A GPS receiver is a chip costing a matter of pence that is built into your mapping and display device. Adding another chip to handle Glonass (soon) and Galileo (sometime, maybe) will make hardly any difference to the cost of producing the thing. And when they all get rolled onto one chip, it will probably be cheaper to get a multi-system navigator than to get one that can only handle the thirty year-old, heading-for-obsolecence GPS

 

[ChrisE]

And despite :-, the main reason it is so far behind schedule is because the UK Labour Government -- the biggest snooper and money grubber of the lot -- was determined to make it fail.

Go on, I'm intrigued, how did the previous government make it fail?

 

[timbartlett]

Go on, I'm intrigued, how did the previous government make it fail?

Well here's just one example (from the FT http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c54987ce-906d-11dc-a6f2-0000779fd2ac.html:-

Scrap Galileo project, British MPs say
By Andrew Bounds in Brussels
Published: November 12 2007 00:44 | Last updated: November 12 2007 00:44

Europe’s troubled rival to the US global positioning system faces fresh difficulties on Monday, with an influential group of British parliamentarians calling for it to be scrapped.

The transport select committee of the House of Commons says there is an “alarming” lack of detail in cost estimates for the €3.4bn (£2.4bn, $5bn) Galileo system and that it could be obsolete as soon as it is launched.

Their report, published on Monday, adds to pressure on the UK government to block a request by the European Commission for €2.4bn of taxpayers’ money to plug a funding hole after private contractors pulled out of the project, saying they could not make it pay.

EU finance ministers are scheduled to begin discussions on Tuesday on whether to divert money from unused agriculture spending and research cash in the bloc’s 2007 and 2008 budgets.

The 30-strong constellation of satellites, which would be more accurate than the Pentagon-devised GPS, is scheduled to be operational by 2013. Brussels says it would generate billions of euros in revenue, create thousands of jobs and keep European companies at the cutting edge of technology.

However, the committee, which took evidence from British but not EU officials, said it was already over budget and costs could easily spiral out of control. It also doubted whether it could recoup investment by charging users in the face of free competition from upgraded US, Russian and Chinese systems.

“We fear that Galileo’s status as a flagship grand project is clouding the judgment of some in relation to its true, realistic and proven merits,” the committee said. “It is entirely conceivable that the best cost-benefit solution at this stage might be to scrap the programme.”

Galileo would cost €14bn by 2033, it said, of which the UK could pay about 17 per cent.

The committee, dominated by the ruling Labour party, conceded London could not veto Galileo. However, it said it should block other EU policies to get its way. It also called for an emergency parliamentary debate this month.

i.e. the Labour Party refused to allow the EU to divert spare money from the Agriculture benefit to get Galileo under way, and was prepared to hold other projects to ransom if it didn't get its way. Incidentally, part of the reason that Galileo needed the extra funds in the first place was because the UK Gov't has been trying to sabotage it at every step of the way. One suggestion is that it might be because the USA has opposed Galileo from the start.

The Dunwoody woman was proud of the damage she did to what she described as "a herd of pigs with gold trotters, platinum tails and diamond eyes"

 

[binch]

Gps failures

Writing with professional hat on, I have had several failures of GPS over the years, but these have been mostly when cut by Uncle Sam.
I am however very worried about jamming.
Most amateur jamming is short range and not generally serious, but it is possible to wipe an area with more powerful jammers.
I still keep my two sextants in the wheelhouse.
Why two?
One is configured for shorter range "distance off" v. d. a.
The other for astro.

 

[ChrisE]

Go on, I'm intrigued, how did the previous government make it fail?

I see, although to be fair 5 of the 9 are labour and the rest, well, are the rest.

 

[pugwash60]

Writing with professional hat on, I have had several failures of GPS over the years, but these have been mostly when cut by Uncle Sam.
I am however very worried about jamming.
Most amateur jamming is short range and not generally serious, but it is possible to wipe an area with more powerful jammers.
I still keep my two sextants in the wheelhouse.
Why two?
One is configured for shorter range "distance off" v. d. a.
The other for astro.

I'm intrigued, how have you configured it for 'shorter range "distance off" v. d. a.' ?

 

[pugwash60]

The Glonass system is, I think, up and running too.
Which of the systems apart from gps will be free to use I wonder, it used to cost me 40 quid a week to rent the decca mk 21 with plotter. It's not the cost of the chip / receiver so much as whether you are (legally ) allowed to access it, without having to contribute to the costs of the system itself. Difficult to compete with gps which is free and always has been.
On the radio this morning they were saying that the radar on ships will go down as they use gps for timing. I don't believe this to be correct, many ships use the gps receivers output for speed and positioning on the ppi and it might affect the ARPA but the raw radar signal should be fine. The ARPA speed requirement can be input manually which is nearly as good, some people don't like gps speed anyway preferring speed through the water, saying SOG gives erroneous output, it does but only in relation to aspect, not to CPA and so on I'm happy with a gps speed.

 

[timbartlett]

I see, although to be fair 5 of the 9 are labour and the rest, well, are the rest.

Agreed. Also, to be fair, that is just one example from many -- the first of a long list from a single google query. And the Labour Gov'ts anti-Galileo campaign was not limited to a single week or month: it went on for years.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Backup and more backup.

There is also a Russian GPS system called GLONASS, and guess what, to sell navigation into Russia in the future you need to support GLONASS. So that makes 3 systems. Work is already underway to provide systems that use all three versions.