Twin Electric! Salona Yachts

[NormanB]

ok so you seem to be ignoring the point. I'll give up

You are getting very proprietorial about all of this. If you will use woolly terms like ‘power ramp up’ and talk about ‘more speed’ but ignore the power requirements to achieve that, then you better had give up. Power has to come from somewhere, be that the wind, the battery, or diesel fuel. Going electric does not free the vessel from the laws of hydrodynamics. I totally get the point you are enthused by electric drive, you do need to be a tad more objective.

 

[Greenheart]

That's harsh isn't it? Seemed like you were both making mainly the same point - bigger yachts reach slightly higher hull speeds.

Before going on, I must say that I haven't read all the posts, or watched any of the attached videos, or clicked any links, herein.

I am not allocating any value to how lovely it is to use. Quiet, smooth (smooth, you find out, is nearly as significant as quiet), no diesel fumes in the cockpit in the downwind drift home nursing a hangover on Sunday morning. Complete control of prop speed, you can apply 50W if that's what you need to get into a berth, no putting in and out of gear at diesel idle speed.

The range/speed figures of this installation on pure battery are as follows:
- at 1kW output we achieve 3.3 knots which give us about 54nm
- at 2kW we get 4.5 knots, 40nm
- at 3kW 5 knots, 30nm

I started an enthusiastic electric propulsion discussion, ten years ago...and diesel-loving forumites were...really very resistant...
...and that was back in the days when £70,000 would have been a lot of money, for an auxiliary.

Ian's Sadler 29 story is very encouraging, but it reminds me of the things I realised, which others may benefit by considering. The figures are dazzling...only 1kw will give a nearly-four-ton yacht, walking pace; but tripling that output only increases the speed by 50%, and upgrading cells and motors to edge toward displacement maximum, gets ruinously costly or heavy, and destroys range...

...so...the cleanness, quietness and mechanical simplicity (which represents a fabulous quality-of-life upgrade to sailors who didn't buy a boat as a means to get anywhere fast) is the reason to go electric. It's really a luxury appointment which won't suit anyone who routinely wants to (or who has to) thrash their boat under power, before they can enjoy the leisurely purity of sail.

If we were trying to replicate powerboat output/endurance, electricity would be hopeless. But in a sailing boat, an electric auxiliary is a cool alternative that depends on the users' time-availability, patience, and reasons for owning a boat which by design is not fast. I've no doubt it will become the auxiliary of choice, in efficient sailing yachts whose owners sail for pleasure. It's luxury.

Not one word of that will persuade those who are deaf to their diesel's racket. Their circumstances require that they endure it.
.

 

[lustyd]

.
Ian's Sadler 29 story is very encouraging, but it reminds me of the things I realised, which others may benefit by considering. The figures are dazzling...only 1kw will give a nearly-four-ton yacht, walking pace; but tripling that output only increases the speed by 50%, and upgrading cells and motors to edge toward displacement maximum, gets ruinously costly or heavy, and destroys range...

It’s funny because my boat has a 32KW engine and still only manages 8.5kt, I’m told the standard 20KW manages 7.5, both being unbearably loud at those speeds.
Im sure most people going electric realise a 20 mile range is probably enough and anything more is a bonus for the battery bank. You’re right though, most sailors will need to die off before electric really takes hold I think, the mental block is too strong! Thankfully I don’t think the west coast US is like that and it’s where Tesla broke through so I still think they’ll pay for this tech to mature so that in 10 years I’ll get my quiet clean boat ?

 

[geem]

It’s funny because my boat has a 32KW engine and still only manages 8.5kt, I’m told the standard 20KW manages 7.5, both being unbearably loud at those speeds.
Im sure most people going electric realise a 20 mile range is probably enough and anything more is a bonus for the battery bank. You’re right though, most sailors will need to die off before electric really takes hold I think, the mental block is too strong! Thankfully I don’t think the west coast US is like that and it’s where Tesla broke through so I still think they’ll pay for this tech to mature so that in 10 years I’ll get my quiet clean boat ?

You dont need to wait for 10 years. You can have it now. Convert your boat now or buy one from Salona. I am guessing you want to leave it for 10 years because its too expensive or you want to go more than 20 miles? Which is what everybody is telling you

 

[lustyd]

No it’s because my boat has a nearly new engine and I’ve only just bought the boat so there’s no reason to change. I had the last boat for 10 years and expect this one to be similar. Whatever your problem is you need to get over it or stop posting.

 

[geem]

That's harsh isn't it? Seemed like you were both making mainly the same point - bigger yachts reach slightly higher hull speeds.

Before going on, I must say that I haven't read all the posts, or watched any of the attached videos, or clicked any links, herein.



I started an enthusiastic electric propulsion discussion, ten years ago...and diesel-loving forumites were...really very resistant...
...and that was back in the days when £70,000 would have been a lot of money, for an auxiliary.

Ian's Sadler 29 story is very encouraging, but it reminds me of the things I realised, which others may benefit by considering. The figures are dazzling...only 1kw will give a nearly-four-ton yacht, walking pace; but tripling that output only increases the speed by 50%, and upgrading cells and motors to edge toward displacement maximum, gets ruinously costly or heavy, and destroys range...

...so...the cleanness, quietness and mechanical simplicity (which represents a fabulous quality-of-life upgrade to sailors who didn't buy a boat as a means to get anywhere fast) is the reason to go electric. It's really a luxury appointment which won't suit anyone who routinely wants to (or who has to) thrash their boat under power, before they can enjoy the leisurely purity of sail.

If we were trying to replicate powerboat output/endurance, electricity would be hopeless. But in a sailing boat, an electric auxiliary is a cool alternative that depends on the users' time-availability, patience, and reasons for owning a boat which by design is not fast. I've no doubt it will become the auxiliary of choice, in efficient sailing yachts whose owners sail for pleasure. It's luxury.

Not one word of that will persuade those who are deaf to their diesel's racket. Their circumstances require that they endure it.
.

I agree with a lot of what you say. If you have a boat to potter out of your local harbour and go for a sail then back in at the end of the day electric could be a great solution. You dont need much range for that. If its a small boat then the a quite electric motor would be a great alternative to a diesel. Scale this up however to a yacht like that in the title and there is a massive problem. These size of boats are purchased by those wanting to cross oceans or cruise more extensively. With the range issue it would be a none starter for lots of people. You mention luxury. We raced on a Farr 56 in the Grenada Regatta a few years ago. Th engine was so quite that we forgot it was running at the start of the race and got penalised! These boats are already luxurious with their diesel engine but they also have massive range and the ability to punch into 30kts of wind for 24 hours if necessary using lots of throttle and fuel.
The Sadler 29 in the posts above has no range. It suits the owner so that fine and its being used as a test bed. Using a petrol generator to extend range is a bit of a laugh. The technology of diesel electric to me seems far more likely. Install a genset instead of an engine in the engine compartment of the Salona 46 and you have a hybrid. You can spend the majority of time electric drive with no diesel but the generator extends range dramatically and all of a sudden it starts to make sense. Just for the record I am not negative towards the technology just realistic. I look forward to the time in a few years when lithium technology has matured and the battery installations are cost effective and mainstream

 

[lustyd]

Wierd, 50% of every marina in the south is full of almost new 40+ foot boats which rarely even leave the marina. You should tell them they wanted to cross oceans. In reality I doubt that even 1% of production boats cross an ocean. You also still ignoring the fact that almost nobody crosses the atlantic/pacific by motor in a yacht, and if they did they'd be insane after a month of engine drone.

 

[geem]

No it’s because my boat has a nearly new engine and I’ve only just bought the boat so there’s no reason to change. I had the last boat for 10 years and expect this one to be similar. Whatever your problem is you need to get over it or stop posting.

When you start making sense I will stop posting?

 

[lustyd]

Fair enough, I've added you to the ignore list then, you don't seem to have posted anything of substance anyway

 

[geem]

Wierd, 50% of every marina in the south is full of almost new 40+ foot boats which rarely even leave the marina. You should tell them they wanted to cross oceans. In reality I doubt that even 1% of production boats cross an ocean. You also still ignoring the fact that almost nobody crosses the atlantic/pacific by motor in a yacht, and if they did they'd be insane after a month of engine drone.

So those will be the ones that when they do go out of the marina they dont put their sails up and they motor everywhere?

 

[Stemar]

if they did they'd be insane after a month of engine drone.

Unlikely. They'd be out of fuel by the end of the first week.

Were I several years younger and several million richer, I'd look very seriously at electric power for my yacht, but we're at the beginning of the time of electric power, and early adopters always pay a price both monetary and in performance, so I'll stick with my planet destroyer for now, but it isn't hard to imagine similar discussions a while back about fitting any sort of engine in sailing boats, and the same thing about replacing hayburners with infernal combustion on the road.

 

[lustyd]

Yes you'd have to really want to motor to carry that much fuel (and hate sailing!). I'm not overly bothered by the plenet destroying bit, I don't think yachts are really a problem in the grand scheme. I would very much like the various advantages of electric though. As you say, other early adopters will lead the way. Given the average tech salary in the areas they intend to sell into I don't think cost will even be a factor, and given those areas the eco-story probably will be the driver.

 

[boomerangben]

It strikes me that as we peer over the horizon (or maybe not that far) at the loom of electric propulsion, maybe we should have a quick look back at the days of the truculent original auxiliary engine. A beast that far from inspiring confidence, was always used as motivation for learning how to sail and handle at close quarters under sail. My father was taught to sail by his grandfather who’s scepticism of an iron topsail has rubbed off onto successive generations. They had fun sailing despite their dreaded donk. I get that today we take an engine for granted and that it switching on at a turn of the key and it continued smooth running is an expectation rather than a luxury. But as electrical propulsion comes steaming (?) over the horizon it will be taken up by a small minority initially who love it’s green credentials and those who treat their motor as an auxiliary means of propulsion. There has always been a sector of the market who view sailing as the definitive means of propelling their hobby and many here who only fill their tank every leap year will be more open to those who have strict time scales and places to be. We all have different needs from our hobby which is why there are so many different boats out there. I think electric is here to stay and is blooming marvellous idea. Now which numbers should I pick for tomorrow nights lottery.......?

 

[lustyd]

I don't think it's a case of people who have places to be, so much as the range you're sailing. If your last leg is under 80NM then electric is quite doable now, and that covers all of my sailing with the assumption that there's not a whole week without wind since I would generally return to more local moorings for a day or two at the end of a trip. If you're risking crossing the channel on your last day then a diesel might get you to work on time, but there's still a risk that you won't get back.

I don't consider the motor to be optional these days. In those days there were fewer boats and moorings had more space around them. It's a challenge getting into my berth with an engine given the size and location so there's not a chance I'd manage under sail

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I'll take electric power for yachts seriously when someone realises that the tonnes of lead in the keel are where the battery should be. Keeping a lead keel and loading the boat with lithium batteries is nonsense.

 

[geem]

I'll take electric power for yachts seriously when someone realises that the tonnes of lead in the keel are where the battery should be. Keeping a lead keel and loading the boat with lithium batteries is nonsense.

Maybe we need bolt on lithium keels?

 

[Mark Payne]

Ha well... I love the Sailing Uma guys and their channel is lovely.
The boat they reviewed was so horrible I could not see past the Ikea fit-out.
About the only thing I liked was the electrics.
Yes I did watch the whole thing.

Clearly this was a commercial deal for them and why not. They need to make a buck.

I had to rescue my boat from the Morbihan in the summer 2020 for all the obvious reasons. I need the reliability of diesel power and distance capability. Uma have a "not in a hurry to get anywhere" mentality which is fine till you are in a hurry to get off a lee shore. I think they sail well. I would not trust myself to always sail well.....

I agree with other posters... the amount of fuel going into my boat is tiny in the grand scheme of things. Even in the micro scheme of my things.

Just got rid of the "old" 2010 BMW 530d for a second hand Astra 1.6D. MPG in my life has gone from 34 to 58 average. Thats pretty green. Tied up £12,000 in a 3 year old car rather than £36,000 in a new Kia e-niro. I am all over the money calcs on this. Also I took a pre-existing resource rather than consuming new materials. This simple change will have a massive influence on fuel consumption. The boat.... tiny.

The Oceanvolt gear is just too expensive. Unless you have the cash. Then it's all about the fashion. Thats fine if that's your bag. Go buy the Ikea tub that the Uma guys were on.

We are all just consumers.

 

[geem]

Ha well... I love the Sailing Uma guys and their channel is lovely.
The boat they reviewed was so horrible I could not see past the Ikea fit-out.
About the only thing I liked was the electrics.
Yes I did watch the whole thing.

Clearly this was a commercial deal for them and why not. They need to make a buck.

I had to rescue my boat from the Morbihan in the summer 2020 for all the obvious reasons. I need the reliability of diesel power and distance capability. Uma have a "not in a hurry to get anywhere" mentality which is fine till you are in a hurry to get off a lee shore. I think they sail well. I would not trust myself to always sail well.....

I agree with other posters... the amount of fuel going into my boat is tiny in the grand scheme of things. Even in the micro scheme of my things.

Just got rid of the "old" 2010 BMW 530d for a second hand Astra 1.6D. MPG in my life has gone from 34 to 58 average. Thats pretty green. Tied up £12,000 in a 3 year old car rather than £36,000 in a new Kia e-niro. I am all over the money calcs on this. Also I took a pre-existing resource rather than consuming new materials. This simple change will have a massive influence on fuel consumption. The boat.... tiny.

The Oceanvolt gear is just too expensive. Unless you have the cash. Then it's all about the fashion. Thats fine if that's your bag. Go buy the Ikea tub that the Uma guys were on.

We are all just consumers.

Agreed.

 

[kof]

So agree with some of the posters here. I drive a Tesla and have for the last 6 years - I'll do anything I can to reduce my footprint and impact on others and that includes solar on the boat, led lights, running the generator as little as I can and so on.

Diesel is a known fuel. It has a good energy density and I know that if I have 600 litres of it in my tank I can motor for 1400 miles. It's reliable, we can fix it anywhere, we can get the fuel anywhere and most of all I don't have to concern myself with short range.

Water is one of the hardest mediums to push through and unlike a car where once you get up to speed all you are fighting is basically the air and a little rolling resistance, on a boat you have to right the resistance of the water every mile you go. That makes electric propulsion work very very hard compared to a diesel.

For boats that only need to day sail or small coastal hops that electric may work great - you don't NEED the range and have a marina at the end where you can recharge and off you go again.

 

[Ningaloo]

For boats that only need to day sail or small coastal hops that electric may work great - you don't NEED the range and have a marina at the end where you can recharge and off you go again.

This is kind of the opposite of what the Uma guys are saying, and they have been pure electric for 5 years with full time live aboard and ocean passages. They say you need a marina if you have diesel since your batteries need a recharge after a day sail. And I agree - my solar helps keep my batteries full during the day but on my night passages the batteries get low. But with regen, your batteries are full at the end of every sail so no need to find a marina!
I'm trying to think what the longest continuous period I have run under motor and I guess in the last 6 years it's probably about 6 hours, but that was followed by 18 hours of high speed sailing.
At the moment the cost differential is probably discouraging volume builders from offering this. Kudos to Salona!