Twin Electric! Salona Yachts

[lustyd]

I think the bluewater thing is an interesting point especially alongside your med comments. If I went accross the atlantic there would be maybe a month (less with great downwind performance...) crossing followed by a year or so bimbling about the islands. I'm starting to think that choosing a boat based on day sails and drinking is probably the way to go. That said, for the same reason solar will probably trump regen for most people because most time will be at anchor rather than sailing. One of the other channels (Ruby Rose) made this point about SSB radio - it's expensive and only useful for a tiny portion of the time you use the boat.

 

[geem]

I find it interesting the direction modern boat design is taking. I suspect it a reflection on how the majority of boats are used these days. This differs to how I use a boat and how my friends who have a similar lifestyle use their boats. The things that dont work well with the Salona 46 for liveaboard life on the hook are obvious to me. It has a tiny water tank for a 46 foot liveaboard boat. 200 litres. We have 800 litres and we are a smaller boat. It is super light at less than 10t. How well would it take all the clobber that we all carry with us as liveaboards.. the keel is deep draft. Its rare to find a modern cruising boat with over 2.4m draft. No Bahamas cruising for this boat. The keel has a long bulb that protrudes front and back from the fin. If you have ever anchored in a tidal river you may have experienced the chain wrap that happens with this kind of keel on change of tide. Its extremely hard to unwrap this kind of wrap once it has happened and can get pretty dangerous if the current is strong.
The interior design doesn't lend itself to rough passages. Its designed for marina living and it would do this very nicely.
The more a look at the whole design of this boat combined with the electric propulsion, the more it obvious that its concept is alien to the use I am familiar with. Its not going to be the choice of owners cruisIng off the beaten track or even crossing oceans. On the US East coast lightning strikes are common. Far more so than what we are used to in the UK. Can you imagine the devastation to the electronics on this boat should you get hit. I see this boat as a marina hoping luxury item for somebody who likes to plug in to mains power every night and I think it will do this role very well. Its not a criticism. Its an observation that people are demanding boats for different roles than I require. I must be a dinosaur ?

 

[Tranona]

You are just confirming what I said. It is pointless comparing the Salona against your requirements and what you expect from a bluewater liveaboard. It was never designed for that purpose. It is irrelevant that the interior is unsuitable for rough passages - owners will never knowingly sail in rough weather. Same with all the other things it has not got like 800l of water - just not needed - 200l is more than enough for showers for 6 people for a couple of days in the Med. My Bavaria had 300l and I don't recall ever using it all in a week holiday with 4 of us on board. Your comments on draft and keel shape are also not relevant as it is intended for use in non tidal deep water locations.

Why keep on about all things it is not suitable for rather than assess it relation to the use it was designed for? Lets face it the number of new boats designed in a way that suits you is vanishingly small, simply because the number of people prepared to buy such boats is equally small. In reality many of today's production boats are perfectly capable of being used in the way you use your boat as witnessed by the hundreds or indeed thousands that already do it. No different really from 30 years ago when folks were buying production Moodys and Westerlys to sail off into the sunset rather than one off or custom built boats at twice the price.

So, yes it does seem alien to you, so rather than slag it off why not open up a bit and look at it from the point of view of the potential buyers. They will be lovely people who will be enthusiastic about the boat and have a whale of a time exploiting its capabilities. Imagine scooting along at 8 knots in 12 knots of wind on a close reach for 3 or 4 hours in the afternoon before dropping the hook in 6 metres of tideless clear blue water for the evening, having a swim and beer before rowing ashore for a meal in a beach taverna.. Then motoring out the next calm morning in silence for a couple of hours to the next bay for lunch. And so on for all your hard earned holiday. Bit like the video, only it rained in the morning, but they were there in the autumn.

I too have been a sceptic of electric power on yachts for the basic reasons of the poor energy density of batteries compared with a tank of diesel. However I think this boat and its propulsion system is close to the turning point. The key things are light weight, long waterline, big rig that allows regular sailing speeds above 6 knots. Then the dual pod regeneration units that can provide serious recharging of the batteries under sail. This is, of course dependent on it actually living up to the claims in the real world. The alternative being played with - hybrids is I think a blind ally, just as it is turning out in cars, except where the electric power is used to enhance performance rather than as prime propulsion. A diesel generator and electric drives have been tried in the past on charter catamarans and were a disaster. As Nigel Calder concluded from his experiments with his Malo hybrids only make sense when the domestic electric consumption of the boat exceeds the propulsion requirements. This is not normally the case with a sailing yacht although it is in a cruise ship for example, which is why they are almost universally diesel electric. On the other hand cargo vessels are all diesel because the power requirement is for propulsion, so they have a single huge diesel power plant with small auxiliary generators for ships systems.

Going back 20 years to when I bought my first Bavaria in Greece, if a boat like the Salona had been available I would have seriously considered it. Similarly as I suggested earlier I would be tempted by a boat like my current 33 IF the range/speed could approach what is claimed for the 46. However suspect it is still out of reach partly because of the lower consistent sailing speed and partly because of having only one regeneration pod.

 

[geem]

You are just confirming what I said. It is pointless comparing the Salona against your requirements and what you expect from a bluewater liveaboard. It was never designed for that purpose. It is irrelevant that the interior is unsuitable for rough passages - owners will never knowingly sail in rough weather. Same with all the other things it has not got like 800l of water - just not needed - 200l is more than enough for showers for 6 people for a couple of days in the Med. My Bavaria had 300l and I don't recall ever using it all in a week holiday with 4 of us on board. Your comments on draft and keel shape are also not relevant as it is intended for use in non tidal deep water locations.

Why keep on about all things it is not suitable for rather than assess it relation to the use it was designed for? Lets face it the number of new boats designed in a way that suits you is vanishingly small, simply because the number of people prepared to buy such boats is equally small. In reality many of today's production boats are perfectly capable of being used in the way you use your boat as witnessed by the hundreds or indeed thousands that already do it. No different really from 30 years ago when folks were buying production Moodys and Westerlys to sail off into the sunset rather than one off or custom built boats at twice the price.

So, yes it does seem alien to you, so rather than slag it off why not open up a bit and look at it from the point of view of the potential buyers. They will be lovely people who will be enthusiastic about the boat and have a whale of a time exploiting its capabilities. Imagine scooting along at 8 knots in 12 knots of wind on a close reach for 3 or 4 hours in the afternoon before dropping the hook in 6 metres of tideless clear blue water for the evening, having a swim and beer before rowing ashore for a meal in a beach taverna.. Then motoring out the next calm morning in silence for a couple of hours to the next bay for lunch. And so on for all your hard earned holiday. Bit like the video, only it rained in the morning, but they were there in the autumn.

I too have been a sceptic of electric power on yachts for the basic reasons of the poor energy density of batteries compared with a tank of diesel. However I think this boat and its propulsion system is close to the turning point. The key things are light weight, long waterline, big rig that allows regular sailing speeds above 6 knots. Then the dual pod regeneration units that can provide serious recharging of the batteries under sail. This is, of course dependent on it actually living up to the claims in the real world. The alternative being played with - hybrids is I think a blind ally, just as it is turning out in cars, except where the electric power is used to enhance performance rather than as prime propulsion. A diesel generator and electric drives have been tried in the past on charter catamarans and were a disaster. As Nigel Calder concluded from his experiments with his Malo hybrids only make sense when the domestic electric consumption of the boat exceeds the propulsion requirements. This is not normally the case with a sailing yacht although it is in a cruise ship for example, which is why they are almost universally diesel electric. On the other hand cargo vessels are all diesel because the power requirement is for propulsion, so they have a single huge diesel power plant with small auxiliary generators for ships systems.

Going back 20 years to when I bought my first Bavaria in Greece, if a boat like the Salona had been available I would have seriously considered it. Similarly as I suggested earlier I would be tempted by a boat like my current 33 IF the range/speed could approach what is claimed for the 46. However suspect it is still out of reach partly because of the lower consistent sailing speed and partly because of having only one regeneration pod.

In my email above I didnt slag it off. I acknowledge its niche use and pointed out how far away this use was from my own use and the use of my fellow liveaboards. I accept that its niche is far closer to the way you use your boat. I couldnt live with the Salona. I wasn't unfair to it but I pointed out why I would not buy such a boat. My kind of boat for the sailing I do would be better met by an Oyster, HR, etc

 

[lustyd]

Imagine scooting along at 8 knots in 12 knots of wind on a close reach for 3 or 4 hours in the afternoon before dropping the hook in 6 metres of tideless clear blue water for the evening, having a swim and beer before rowing ashore for a meal in a beach taverna.. Then motoring out the next calm morning in silence for a couple of hours to the next bay for lunch. And so on for all your hard earned holiday.

I'll take two please, and one for the Mrs!

 

[kof]

Ok you don't think the interior will work for long passages? What about this?

I also think the number of owners that will anchor this in a tidal river can probably be counted on one hand so I don't think wrapping the chain around the keel is a big issue for most people. You obviously have different needs and requirements. That's fine but it doesn't mean the design of this boat is wrong. Major boat builders listen to their majority audience and produce boats that fit those needs. The market is obviously looking for something like this design.

I find it interesting the direction modern boat design is taking. I suspect it a reflection on how the majority of boats are used these days. This differs to how I use a boat and how my friends who have a similar lifestyle use their boats. The things that dont work well with the Salona 46 for liveaboard life on the hook are obvious to me. It has a tiny water tank for a 46 foot liveaboard boat. 200 litres. We have 800 litres and we are a smaller boat. It is super light at less than 10t. How well would it take all the clobber that we all carry with us as liveaboards.. the keel is deep draft. Its rare to find a modern cruising boat with over 2.4m draft. No Bahamas cruising for this boat. The keel has a long bulb that protrudes front and back from the fin. If you have ever anchored in a tidal river you may have experienced the chain wrap that happens with this kind of keel on change of tide. Its extremely hard to unwrap this kind of wrap once it has happened and can get pretty dangerous if the current is strong.
The interior design doesn't lend itself to rough passages. Its designed for marina living and it would do this very nicely.
The more a look at the whole design of this boat combined with the electric propulsion, the more it obvious that its concept is alien to the use I am familiar with. Its not going to be the choice of owners cruisIng off the beaten track or even crossing oceans. On the US East coast lightning strikes are common. Far more so than what we are used to in the UK. Can you imagine the devastation to the electronics on this boat should you get hit. I see this boat as a marina hoping luxury item for somebody who likes to plug in to mains power every night and I think it will do this role very well. Its not a criticism. Its an observation that people are demanding boats for different roles than I require. I must be a dinosaur ?

 

[geem]

I also think the number of owners that will anchor this in a tidal river can probably be counted on one hand so I don't think wrapping the chain around the keel is a big issue for most people
[/QUOTE]
Its not just tidal rivers. Even the Vendee boats have had problems with the bulbs on their keels catching weed. Can you imagine trying to remove fishing gear or rope caught around that bulb? This is not a great feature of a cruising boat.

 

[lustyd]

Ok you don't think the interior will work for long passages? What about this?

Way too modern, where are the oil lamps?!

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Ok you don't think the interior will work for long passages? What about this?

I also think the number of owners that will anchor this in a tidal river can probably be counted on one hand so I don't think wrapping the chain around the keel is a big issue for most people. You obviously have different needs and requirements. That's fine but it doesn't mean the design of this boat is wrong. Major boat builders listen to their majority audience and produce boats that fit those needs. The market is obviously looking for something like this design.

LOL! looks nice in boat show dress but I don't think the pot plant has a chance!

 

[lustyd]

LOL! looks nice in boat show dress but I don't think the pot plant has a chance!

It's entirely possible to have a nice boat while stopped and then stow things for a passage. Pot plants and cushions help lure attract the fairer sex into boating

 

[lustyd]

Having said that, I do always wonder what the plan is with the loose chairs/stools in these big modern boats!

 

[Tranona]

Its not just tidal rivers. Even the Vendee boats have had problems with the bulbs on their keels catching weed. Can you imagine trying to remove fishing gear or rope caught around that bulb? This is not a great feature of a cruising boat.

That is very true, however T shaped keels have been around for many years on performance orientated boats (eg Hanses) that are mainly sold in the Med. It seems that they do not put new owners off.

Word of caution though, even long chord straight keels are not immune from snagging. In 2019 I hit a line between 2 pot markers just under water at about 5 knots (under sail) which stopped me dead. Rather than slipping off the bottom as one would hope it streamed behind and down one side of the rudder. Even backing down to create slack did not help. Fortunately I was only about a mile outside Poole Harbour on a lovely late summer day with a pretty flat sea as wind was offshore. Called the coastguard, put on the kettle and 40 minutes later the RNLI RIB arrived. One of the crew went over the side to identify where the rope went and the RIB towed me back to take the load off the line which they then cut, pulled the 2 parts back and tied the ends back together. On my way in little over an hour total.

 

[Graham_Wright]

MDF?

 

[dunedin]

Its not just tidal rivers. Even the Vendee boats have had problems with the bulbs on their keels catching weed. Can you imagine trying to remove fishing gear or rope caught around that bulb? This is not a great feature of a cruising boat.

I personally didn’t want a boat with a torpedo keel shape - but as Tranona says, there are countless modern boats being sold with such keels, not just Salona (and Hanse). Certainly many / most of the more sporty cruisers, including Dehler, X Pure etc etc.
And I guess there aren’t a huge number of tidal river anchorages in the Med, where Salona are based!

At risk of getting closer back to topic (!), I did raise a concern early on that the shape of the twin electric drives was a worry, as these are slightly torpedo shape - and being offset from the bow, are likely to hook any passing sea weed, let alone pot buoys.

 

[Tranona]

Not hugely different from a normal saildrive except they are usually behind a keel. Even then sialdrives can pick up trash, some of which might have slid down the side or even underneath before popping up to snag the saildrive.

Pity Oceanvolt did not have the foresight to incorporate a Stripper in the design. These have saved countless saidrives from damage (at over £5k a pop for replacement) over the years

 

[flaming]

Not hugely different from a normal saildrive except they are usually behind a keel. Even then sialdrives can pick up trash, some of which might have slid down the side or even underneath before popping up to snag the saildrive.

Pity Oceanvolt did not have the foresight to incorporate a Stripper in the design. These have saved countless saidrives from damage (at over £5k a pop for replacement) over the years

The logical next step is for retractable drives like the Dehler 30 OD.

So then you only need rope cutters for motoring, which can obviously be a lot beefier than the ones you might use on a normal saildrive.

 

[lustyd]

Not hugely different from a normal saildrive except they are usually behind a keel.

I assumed the below hull bit was pretty standard and possibly off the shelf. There's not a lot they can do about the shape without compromising performance. For the small number of times an issue will occur I don't think the trade offs would be worth it. It's not like we're all getting caught up in things every trip, although some here seem to suggest they might!

 

[kof]

Good point but they have already thought of that. The floor already comes with plates for fastening the tools - 2 by the table and 2 by the sofa. Just clip them in when under way.

BTW - the boat with the modern interior and the stools is an Amel 50. It's a real passage maker and doesn't have to come with oil lamps and look like a cave down below.

Having said that, I do always wonder what the plan is with the loose chairs/stools in these big modern boats!

 

[lustyd]

Thanks I kind of assumed it must be something like that but hard to tell in pics. I would love to have movable chairs while stopped!

 

[Tranona]

The logical next step is for retractable drives like the Dehler 30 OD.

So then you only need rope cutters for motoring, which can obviously be a lot beefier than the ones you might use on a normal saildrive.

That is interesting. Not seen that before. Variation on the Thailand long tails (and the Atco "Impeller" of around 1932. Does the whole propulsion unit move or just the shaft.

BTW the Stripper for a saildrive is a pretty robust bit of kit, but maybe you were thinking of the useless "weed and line cutter" Volvo originally fitted. There would be no difficulty in fitting a normal shaft drive Stripper to the Dehler stern gear.