Turbos- '' TROUBLE'' ..THE ANAGRAM IS THERE .NEED I SAY MORE

[pvb]

Silence is deafening, looks like the OP just wanted to have a winge and not actual help...............

He's probably just embarrassed that he's spent many thousands unnecessarily. The marine engineers must think that it's Christmas every time he turns up, and he certainly seems to have been taken for a mug.

 

[Marsupial]

Forget all the balls about hot shudown, we left all that folkore behind in the 1970's. If vessel compartment temperatures are that high would never be a fit for purpose installation, and could you imagine anybody approaching the pontoon a WOT, banging motor into reverse and then shutting down. Suspect most people motor up to their berth gently.

/QUOTE]

I take your point and agree that oils have improved but can you explain why turbo manufacturers are still (2012) so precise about the need to let the engine (turbo) cool before before shutdown? if its no longer an issue then they wouldnt bother to state it - would they? yes it was in the late 1960's I put turbos on engines in R&D and yes we did have lots of turbo failures caused by poor quality cooked oil, but we learnt how to combat it.

Perhaps what we have here is what many are saying - a not fit for purpose installation.

I am now only an interested bystander when it comes to engines but I have seen lots of not fit for purpose installs many from "reputable" builders so there are lots of fundamental problems out there.

Bye the way if you want to see the mobo guys approach mooring at WOT then crashing into reverse to let go of the anchor - come to Greece/Turkey, at times here its absolute mayhem and the diesel mechanics have a field day, it seems as though many of the boats are always in pieces, and its the same boats. . . . . . some owners have all the luck . . .

 

[Fire99]

I take your point and agree that oils have improved but can you explain why turbo manufacturers are still (2012) so precise about the need to let the engine (turbo) cool before before shutdown?

Warranty Claims! As with most things, the answer lies in the middle. On modern turbo diesels, if you don't let the engine idle (and the turbo's spool down), there is still a theoretical risk of premature turbo failure, but the risks are far far far less than in days of old.

There is no way on earth that this is responsible for 3 turbo's in short succession.

Anyway, we're just discussing a point that the OP has lost interest in.

 

[Latestarter1]

Forget all the balls about hot shudown, we left all that folkore behind in the 1970's. If vessel compartment temperatures are that high would never be a fit for purpose installation, and could you imagine anybody approaching the pontoon a WOT, banging motor into reverse and then shutting down. Suspect most people motor up to their berth gently.

/QUOTE]

I take your point and agree that oils have improved but can you explain why turbo manufacturers are still (2012) so precise about the need to let the engine (turbo) cool before before shutdown? if its no longer an issue then they wouldnt bother to state it - would they? yes it was in the late 1960's I put turbos on engines in R&D and yes we did have lots of turbo failures caused by poor quality cooked oil, but we learnt how to combat it.

Perhaps what we have here is what many are saying - a not fit for purpose installation.

I am now only an interested bystander when it comes to engines but I have seen lots of not fit for purpose installs many from "reputable" builders so there are lots of fundamental problems out there.

Bye the way if you want to see the mobo guys approach mooring at WOT then crashing into reverse to let go of the anchor - come to Greece/Turkey, at times here its absolute mayhem and the diesel mechanics have a field day, it seems as though many of the boats are always in pieces, and its the same boats. . . . . . some owners have all the luck . . .

#1 Old enough to have worked in Ford R&D when D Series truck had sticker on the dashbord if Dover turbo 360 installed requiring idle before shutdown. Issue only really relevant in some industrial applications where motor running at peak torque (mad ot) one moment and shut down the next, and even then Holset advises idling for a minute or two. Developed into a piece of marine folklore which has very little or no relevance to a marine duty cycle.

#2 Yes some builders as well a know nothing yard numpties are PERFECTLY capable of screwing up installations. Why??? Generally arrogance/stupidity, and failure to RTFM!

#3 How many surveyors do you see putting the gauges on an engine for a sea trial??

To sum up OP has been well and truly stuffed, and judging by the quotes regarding diesel engine operation he is being advised by bunch of yard numpties.

This mess COULD be sorted out if OP was prepared to listen..........

* Turbo failure requires analysis.
* Installation requires review by competent qualified engineer (not yard numpty)
* Plenty of turbocharger repairers who could provide a robust fix to the failure. Not just flog em a box.

Once all the the boxes have been ticked OP MAY be able to go after builder or engine supplier as this set up is clearly not fit for purpose. I have been there a good few times and faced with clear evidence of screw ups builders/suppliers will roll over rather than face expensive legal action.

 

[Jim@sea]

True. My first point would be to use a different mechanic .

Its sometimes too easy to take the word of a mechanic as being gospel just because they work for a garage (or a boatyard)

But everyone assumes that they are all suitably qualified with experience of "everything" and I fell into this trap when I bought a vehicle which was not running properly.

I put the vehicle into a garage to find out what the problem was. "Its the Turbo" so a new Turbo was fitted. It did not make any difference.

I then telephoned around the sort of "Diesel Engineers" where garages take Turbo's or Injector Pumps for re-conditioning and with one firm I described the problem and immediatly (over the phone) they diagnosed that the problem was with the Injector Pump and I had a new pump fitted and the engine was perfect.

But the original mechanic should have known that the Injector Pump on this particular engine was known to have a fault where in extremely cold weather a spring in the pump fractured. Perhaps thats "Specialist Knowledge" and the first mechanic would not be expected to know that. But I would and his misdiagnosis caused me unnecessary expense.

In the case of your Turbo problem I would wonder if sufficient oil is reaching the Turbo. In the late 1970's many Fords were having to have new Camshafts fitted as the oil passages were getting blocked up, so to stop me getting warrenty claims on the cars I was selling I used flushing oil, before the pre-sales oil change.

The practice of using Flushing Oil is no longer done any more, but when you consider how much engines can you afford not to do it.

And boat turbo's seem to be particularly at risk. I was recently trying to buy a Lema Clon which although 5 years old had only done 80 hours and when it went out on a sea trial the engine was faulty. Aparrently it needed a new Turbo. But why ?.

 

[nigelmercier]

Its sometimes too easy to take the word of a mechanic as being gospel just because they work for a garage (or a boatyard)
...

In such cases I take the view they are doing their job because they couldn't get a job as a rocket scientist.

 

[Latestarter1]

Its sometimes too easy to take the word of a mechanic as being gospel just because they work for a garage (or a boatyard)

But everyone assumes that they are all suitably qualified with experience of "everything" and I fell into this trap when I bought a vehicle which was not running properly.

I put the vehicle into a garage to find out what the problem was. "Its the Turbo" so a new Turbo was fitted. It did not make any difference.

I then telephoned around the sort of "Diesel Engineers" where garages take Turbo's or Injector Pumps for re-conditioning and with one firm I described the problem and immediatly (over the phone) they diagnosed that the problem was with the Injector Pump and I had a new pump fitted and the engine was perfect.

But the original mechanic should have known that the Injector Pump on this particular engine was known to have a fault where in extremely cold weather a spring in the pump fractured. Perhaps thats "Specialist Knowledge" and the first mechanic would not be expected to know that. But I would and his misdiagnosis caused me unnecessary expense.

In the case of your Turbo problem I would wonder if sufficient oil is reaching the Turbo. In the late 1970's many Fords were having to have new Camshafts fitted as the oil passages were getting blocked up, so to stop me getting warrenty claims on the cars I was selling I used flushing oil, before the pre-sales oil change.

The practice of using Flushing Oil is no longer done any more, but when you consider how much engines can you afford not to do it.

And boat turbo's seem to be particularly at risk. I was recently trying to buy a Lema Clon which although 5 years old had only done 80 hours and when it went out on a sea trial the engine was faulty. Aparrently it needed a new Turbo. But why ?.

I thought we had put the monumental stupidity of using flushing oils in diesel engines to bed many posts ago........

No wonder you can afford boating Jim. I was not part of the gasoline engine group at Ford, they had moved to Cologne, however the revised cam lubrication tube was released pretty early during the life of Pinto motor and there was a robust fix for the cam lubrication issue. Stuffing some poor sod with a bodged used car I find mildly offensive. Ford sold the revised lubrication tube as cheap as chips and included it in camshaft kits. If I had pride in what I sold I would have done the job properly a slept easy at night.

I also used to assist in preparation of training packages for newly released motors, symptom based engine troubleshooting. Picking up the telephone and chewing over symptoms over the phone is the typical of what we used to refer to as the Two Gun Tex approach, i.e. shooting from the hip. Issues are properly resolved with DATA.

Finally why do turbochargers fail prematurely on boats?..............99.9% of the time rubbish installations.

There is a career progression for a good practical tech on the spanners who can do methodical symptom based troubleshooting. I know of one guy in particular who is now VP of quality with major engine manufacturer, probably earning more that rocket scientist.

 

[Skylark]

I'm surprised to see this thread still running and, like most, disappointed that the OP hasn't given us more information to understand root cause.

I'll offer a few facts on hot shut down and hope it's of interest.

Most diesel turbo engines run with a maximum exhaust gas inlet (to the turbine) of about 680 degrees C. Gasoline run at up to 980, or 1050 deg C depending upon materials and so on. Hence thermal degradation of the oil sticking to the inner surfaces of the bearing housing (engine stopped, no lube flow) is much less likely on a diesel. The major solution to the problem on gasoline engines was the introduction of water cooling to the bearing housing, allowing thermal syphon to take the heat away. Most diesel engine turbo bearing housings have cast fins to increase surface area to achieve the same thing.

There were other changes, including for example improving the heat rejection characteristics of the shroud fitted behind the turbine wheel to prevent transfer into the bearing housing. Oil technology has helped enormously, too.

Common senses says that it's not good practice to shut-down a red hot engine. It's not only the turbo that may suffer. Neverthless, the engine is designed and tested to accept a degree of such use. Warpped brake discs come to mind as another example of heat soak.

I was never really involved in service / aftermarket but I've had hands-on experience at automotive original equipment level and during my tenure in the business have witnessed literally millions per year being sold throughout the world. Weibull B0.5 life is extremely low.

There will very likely be an underlying issue with the OP's problem.