TSS - right of way in practice?

[srm]

With AIS I find it has become more apparent that large vessels often take very early action to carry out their duty,

Having been involved in training MN and Fishing OOWs our rule of thumb was that in open waters good practice was to identify close quarters situations at around 6 to 5 miles and make any alteration at around 3 miles from CPA. This is also likely to be applied as far as possible in TSS. The OOW has to identify all collision risks as early as possible and plan appropriate action well in advance. That action has to avoid the initial collision risk without creating new risks with other vessels. Even with the help of ARPA and AIS this can be very demanding in busy shipping lanes.

To be included in the picture small boats like ours require a consistent radar return or AIS transmission out to 6 miles range in open water, as we are unlikely to be visually seen that far off.

Unfortunately, there are some rogues around in vessels of all sizes who ignore the rules. It is not just yachts that have worrying near misses or worse.

 

[onesea]

If you aim at every ship's stern whether they are coming from port or starboard and whether you are under power or sail, then with respect you are causing consternation on the bridges of many commercial vessels who are wondering what on earth you are playing at.

I am not going to argue about if and when to alter, there are to many factors...

Just one observation, aiming at the stern of a vessel (particularly if showing a red light if you altered to Stbd) I would suspect would not confuse an OOW. You are just saying that you are going to pass close astern of them...

They might be peeved if they have already altered for you and you alter for them then that's life...

so I stand on until the point when I am sure risk of colision exists and then take action. All of which fits with the rules

Not quite its only once you have ascertained risk of collision exists can you apply the rules, you are bound by the rules to either stand on or give-way until the actions of one vessel alone cannot stop the collision .

I think what your saying is you will monitor until you feel the other vessel is not giving way. Which is what most others are saying give or take... Just some have a lower/ higher tolerance than others..

Understandable really there is always the question with any other vessel Have they seen me? Are they going to alter for me?

 

[bedouin]

Not quite its only once you have ascertained risk of collision exists can you apply the rules, you are bound by the rules to either stand on or give-way until the actions of one vessel alone cannot stop the collision .

I think what your saying is you will monitor until you feel the other vessel is not giving way. Which is what most others are saying give or take... Just some have a lower/ higher tolerance than others..

Understandable really there is always the question with any other vessel Have they seen me? Are they going to alter for me?

What I mean is that given the sizes of vessels involved, the yacht can wait until much later to take action while still within ColRegs.

Without the radar tools the ship has, I cannot accurately determine that risk of colision exists until 5-10 minutes of the closest approach. By that time if the ship is intending to give way it will have done so. If not, whether or not I am give way vessel, I am entitled to take action myself.

I think that is the opposite of what many people are suggesting which is "always give way".

 

[john_morris_uk]

What I mean is that given the sizes of vessels involved, the yacht can wait until much later to take action while still within ColRegs.

Without the radar tools the ship has, I cannot accurately determine that risk of colision exists until 5-10 minutes of the closest approach. By that time if the ship is intending to give way it will have done so. If not, whether or not I am give way vessel, I am entitled to take action myself.

I think that is the opposite of what many people are suggesting which is "always give way".

I agree - the impression I get (rightly or wrongly) from some people's posts is that they alter course for anything that they think might come near them. In practice you can't tell as the bearings change VERY slowly at first. People should be a little less worried and stand on when they are required to, as 99 times out 0f 100 the scenario sorts its self out. As the ship passes behind you - or you pass behind the ship you might even get a friendly wave from the bridge. The bridge-watchkeepers I have met from the Merchant and Naval fleet invariably take a great deal of pride in their seamanship but they do get VERY frustrated at the antics of some yachtsmen. They are especially cross when they have to alter for the second or third time as they try and guess what the yacht is going to do next while they are trying to concentrate on the ships that are 6 miles away etc. Obeying IRPCS is about being predictable - and those who say they 'always keep clear' are often confusing others by their actions. The truth is they might not have been in a close quarters situation in the first place - but they didn't stand on long enough to find out.

 

[onesea]

What I mean is that given the sizes of vessels involved, the yacht can wait until much later to take action while still within ColRegs.

Without the radar tools the ship has, I cannot accurately determine that risk of colision exists until 5-10 minutes of the closest approach. By that time if the ship is intending to give way it will have done so. If not, whether or not I am give way vessel, I am entitled to take action myself.

I think that is the opposite of what many people are suggesting which is "always give way".

5-10 minutes of a tanker/ bulker at 15 knots or box boat at 25? Its a difficult thing to use times around the rules there are to many factor to consider.

Allot of ships can be quite nibble when the need arises, maybe they are just passing that fishing dam, boat before altering for the WAFI.

You are entitled to take action by yourself. You may take action to avoid collision if it becomes clear that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action, or when so close that collision can no longer be avoided by the actions of the give-way vessel alone.

At what point is it clear that a vessel is not taking appropriate action? Allot comes down to the experience of the person on watch....

I would be surprised if your reaction significantly different to most peoples reaction.
1) Look there is a ship,
2) Looks like its getting closer, I can guess its approximate headiing.
3) Yup, it looks like its coming in our direction,
4) Its staying on around the same bearing,
5) That's not comfortable....

To alter at stage:
1) Impractical,
2) Which way can I alter?
3) You could but I think most people would wait, not really enough info on whats best to do.
4) Yeah now you could alter and make a reasoned choice where to alter,
5) Time to alter,

The the time distance between 4 & 5 experience. Whats comfortable for one may not be for another.

I know I now leave situations develop allot further than when I started navigating.
Does it make me a better Navigator?

 

[john_morris_uk]

One more thought:

Why is it that the ship coming towards you always looks bigger and faster than the ship going away from you?

 

[Roberto]

One more thought:

Why is it that the ship coming towards you always looks bigger and faster than the ship going away from you?

Doppler effect ?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Doppler effect ?

No! Doppler is why the black notes on the piano are louder than the white ones...

 

[bedouin]

One more thought:

Why is it that the ship coming towards you always looks bigger and faster than the ship going away from you?

A well-developed sense of self-preservation - Darwinism in action.

I have to admit I really don't trust my judgement when crossing ahead of a big ship, and I hate the time when you can look up and see both port and startboard lights.

 

[onesea]

One more thought:

Why is it that the ship coming towards you always looks bigger and faster than the ship going away from you?

A well-developed sense of self-preservation - Darwinism in action.

I have to admit I really don't trust my judgement when crossing ahead of a big ship, and I hate the time when you can look up and see both port and startboard lights.

That bits fine if it has not hit you buy then you will probably pass clear

Its up until then I really do not like...

 

[john_morris_uk]

A well-developed sense of self-preservation - Darwinism in action.

I have to admit I really don't trust my judgement when crossing ahead of a big ship, and I hate the time when you can look up and see both port and startboard lights.

I know what you mean! I have often turned the radar on just to check the distance as a ship seems about to bear down on us but found the ship to still be a couple of miles or more away and easily passing clear astern. Its the distances that are deceptive - even when you have been sailing for years.

Its still always nice when you lose one of the ship's sidelights and know that you are past and clear and not still right front of a ship! The answer is that the hand bearing compass doesn't lie. You need to trust the thing and if the bearing is changing then you are not in danger of a collision. As others have said, it might not appear to change much if at all when the ship is six or ten miles away but it changes much more rapidly as you get closer.

 

[KellysEye]

>It means you must stand on on your current course, so that your actions are predictable to others.

I ubnderstand that standing on your course makes your actions predictable but you have made no allowance in your post for turning to avoid collision.