TSS - right of way in practice?

[KellysEye]

>There is of course the other bit - shall not impede - which has caused endless arguments here about just what it means.

There's no point arguing about COLREGS from a liferaft, always give way in the TSS.

 

[Neil_Y]

Interesting responses, I've always considered the situation for the big boats at night (I've done many more night than day crossings) so my course alteration would be to show them the other nav light. If they see a change of colour they know you have made a (significant) change of course, if the colour doesn't change they can't be sure whether you've altered course or just slowed. That equates to changing course to travel in the opposite direction to the vessel you are giving way to, green to green or red to red. It works well in daylight to as you are no longer approaching their track. Generally ships you will meet are quite fast so you only end up altering course for a few mins. Many of the boats will be doing 15-20 knts so a quarter or a third of a Nm every minute. You'll probably get concerned at a mile or two, alter course and they will pass in a few mins. Altering course to avoid a vessel allows you to sail/motor in any direction with regard to the shipping lanes as long as you resume a crossing at 90deg once they've past.

First time it is difficult to judge distance and speed but this approach ensures you are safe and the ship knows what you are doing. I wouldn't aim for the stern as that could be difficult to see from the bridge of the ship and it will still show a track that ends up in you getting very close. There's nothing to stop you calling up the ship on the radio, I haven't done it often but it has reassured me more than once when I thought a ship was altering course to avoid us, in one case it turned out he was as he was give way vessel and said he had clocked us 5nm away and was aiming to pass our stern, to us it looked like a collision. He asked if we wanted him to make a bigger course change!

Make sure you also keep a good lookout behind you, coming up the stairs and seeing port and stbd lights half a mile behind is quite alarming. It's a nice trip and the food and wine on arrival feels well earnt.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have watched this thread with interest and and am completely dismayed at the responses some people have made. For example, I too have seen what appears to be an empty bridge of a ship steaming down the channel, but its VERY much the exception and not an exception I would want to base some completely erroneous interpretation of IRPCS on...

In my humble opinion, the reason that many commercial vessels refer to sailers in yachts as ****ing WAFI's is precisely because of the actions suggested by many people in this thread.

People seriously underestimate the difficulty of judging whether a risk of collision exists from their estimates in the cockpit of the average sailing boat. I suggest that in the vast majority of cases, the larger ship will have assessed and already tweaked the course to make sure that the CPA isn't too close.

For example:

I thought a ship was altering course to avoid us, in one case it turned out he was as he was give way vessel and said he had clocked us 5nm away and was aiming to pass our stern, to us it looked like a collision. He asked if we wanted him to make a bigger course change!

One post suggested that big ships have to justify alterations of course to their superiors. This is complete tosh; they have to justify alterations of passage plan. A quick check with friends in commercial shipping tells me that in loose terms, altering to avoid shipping DOES NOT come under the reporting system for course alteration from Master to owner.

I could go on, but I am losing the will to live on some of these topics. I will conclude with one comment; altering for everying is the way of madness and becomes really annoying for those on the bridge of ships trying to sort out what from what. No wonder they despair at yachtsmen and women. They never know what the average yacht is going to do next...

 

[lw395]

John Morris has it exactly.

 

[bedouin]

I have watched this thread with interest and and am completely dismayed at the responses some people have made. For example, I too have seen what appears to be an empty bridge of a ship steaming down the channel, but its VERY much the exception and not an exception I would want to base some completely erroneous interpretation of IRPCS on...

In my humble opinion, the reason that many commercial vessels refer to sailers in yachts as ****ing WAFI's is precisely because of the actions suggested by many people in this thread.

People seriously underestimate the difficulty of judging whether a risk of collision exists from their estimates in the cockpit of the average sailing boat. I suggest that in the vast majority of cases, the larger ship will have assessed and already tweaked the course to make sure that the CPA isn't too close.

For example:



One post suggested that big ships have to justify alterations of course to their superiors. This is complete tosh; they have to justify alterations of passage plan. A quick check with friends in commercial shipping tells me that in loose terms, altering to avoid shipping DOES NOT come under the reporting system for course alteration from Master to owner.

I could go on, but I am losing the will to live on some of these topics. I will conclude with one comment; altering for everying is the way of madness and becomes really annoying for those on the bridge of ships trying to sort out what from what. No wonder they despair at yachtsmen and women. They never know what the average yacht is going to do next...

+1 well put

 

[KellysEye]

>I have watched this thread with interest and and am completely dismayed at the responses some people have made.

I haven't been dismayed at all, most of it seemed like a sensible discussion with the odd aberration.

 

[Conachair]

People seriously underestimate the difficulty of judging whether a risk of collision exists from their estimates in the cockpit of the average sailing boat. I suggest that in the vast majority of cases, the larger ship will have assessed and already tweaked the course to make sure that the CPA isn't too close.

+1
Can't speak for the channel but that's been my experience offshore from watching them on AIS, the course changes to give a bigger CPA have taken place often 5 miles plus away, before the ship even appears over the horizon.

 

[bedouin]

+1
Can't speak for the channel but that's been my experience offshore from watching them on AIS, the course changes to give a bigger CPA have taken place often 5 miles plus away, before the ship even appears over the horizon.

And that's the danger - if the ship has already taken action to give an adequate CPA (and presumably to pass astern) for you to alter course as well is just going to put you into more danger.

In my view if the ship is going to take action he will do so long before you would need to do so in the small boat, so I stand on until the point when I am sure risk of colision exists and then take action. All of which fits with the rules

 

[charles_reed]

I used to cross the Ouessant TSSR on a regular basis - on one occasion a large Olsen Lines ship altered course to give me a much wider berth than I needed, during some fairly lively conditions. On vhf 13 I was told that "We didn't want to give you wet feet.." Now it says a lot for the knowledge and good manners of professional seamen in any commercial vessel with their rigorous schedule, making sure their wash gave a small sailboat no problems of swamping.
I've found commercial ships (with one Chinese-registered exception), in Western Approaches, both well aware of, and extremely courteous to, WAFI.
Get into the Med it's an entirely different matter...

 

[Topcat47]

I usually cross outside the TSS. Even so there is a line of vessels chuntering up or down channel and I always aim for their sterns if they are looking like they're going to pass ahead. It doesn't hurt and it is the safe option. 'tis every skipper's duty to take action to avoid a collision not just the give way vessel's skipper. It's surprising how quickly they're going and how soon they can come up on you.

 

[john_morris_uk]

And that's the danger - if the ship has already taken action to give an adequate CPA (and presumably to pass astern) for you to alter course as well is just going to put you into more danger.

In my view if the ship is going to take action he will do so long before you would need to do so in the small boat, so I stand on until the point when I am sure risk of colision exists and then take action. All of which fits with the rules

In my humble opinion this is exactly what we all should be doing.

I usually cross outside the TSS. Even so there is a line of vessels chuntering up or down channel and I always aim for their sterns if they are looking like they're going to pass ahead. It doesn't hurt and it is the safe option. 'tis every skipper's duty to take action to avoid a collision not just the give way vessel's skipper. It's surprising how quickly they're going and how soon they can come up on you.

If you aim at every ship's stern whether they are coming from port or starboard and whether you are under power or sail, then with respect you are causing consternation on the bridges of many commercial vessels who are wondering what on earth you are playing at.

>I have watched this thread with interest and and am completely dismayed at the responses some people have made.

I haven't been dismayed at all, most of it seemed like a sensible discussion with the odd aberration.

It sort of started off sensibly but then degenerated and I am dismayed by a couple of things. Firstly the admission by so many that they disregard their obligations under IRPCS and secondly by the dodgy interpretations of IRPCS that have been suggested.

If its of any interest, I try to keep out of TSS and avoid the specific hassle of meeting ships and not impeding them... However I have no problems with crossing shipping lanes. Radar (when necessary), a handheld compass and some common sense application of IRPCS is effective. Don't stand on into danger, but stand on when required to do so. You can get within less than a mile of a ship and not be in the least danger (but I don't suggest you pass one mile ahead.)

People on here ought to take heed of the fact that most TSS are carefully monitored by radar and when rules are flouted the authorities are not above sending a spotter plane out to identify the craft involved and subsequently prosecute the culprits. There are several cases where this has happened. I suppose you might get away with a bit of wondering about in the TSS 'giving way to everything' but it might cause a few eyebrows to be raised and I wouldn't want to take the risk.

 

[Pye_End]

Firstly the admission by so many that they disregard their obligations under IRPCS and secondly by the dodgy interpretations of IRPCS that have been suggested.

With AIS I find it has become more apparent that large vessels often take very early action to carry out their duty, and I do not automatically subscribe to the idea that might is right, or that vessels engaged in work take precedence over those out for pleasure since most ships do not seem to take that view.
However, I do believe that there are a minority of skippers of working vessels that do subscribe to this point of view who will not give way come what may. It can get rather confusing if some yachts follow COLREGS, some don't, some ships do, and others don't.

In high shipping density areas, or awkward areas for ships I generally stay as clear as practicable (early and obvious), but in more open water my first expectation is for COLREGS to be followed by both vessels, and it generally is.

 

[john_morris_uk]

With AIS I find it has become more apparent that large vessels often take very early action to carry out their duty, and I do not automatically subscribe to the idea that might is right, or that vessels engaged in work take precedence over those out for pleasure since most ships do not seem to take that view.
However, I do believe that there are a minority of skippers of working vessels that do subscribe to this point of view who will not give way come what may. It can get rather confusing if some yachts follow COLREGS, some don't, some ships do, and others don't.

In high shipping density areas, or awkward areas for ships I generally stay as clear as practicable (early and obvious), but in more open water my first expectation is for COLREGS to be followed by both vessels, and it generally is.

that seems a very reasonable and sensible attitude. I always assume the other vessel will be complying with IRPCS until its obvious that they are not in which case I comply by taking all necessary avoiding action.

I know that in some parts of the world commercial captains play a bit fast and loose with the rules, but if you are sensible you don't get into trouble.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Question for people. In a TSS, crossing at 90, at night. There's a ship that's going to cross in front of you. But in your opinion, it's a bit close - you want to be a bit further away. The ship approached from your port side. Do you turn to port and show him your starboard light?

 

[KellysEye]

>Firstly the admission by so many that they disregard their obligations under IRPCS and secondly by the dodgy interpretations of IRPCS that have been suggested.


I've just gone back through the thread and I can't find any post that says someone 'disregards their obligations', some are perhaps a bit waffly about what they would do but all say they would take action to avoid ships.

>if some yachts follow COLREGS, some don't, some ships do, and others don't.

I've never seen a ship not obeying colregs, in fact exactly the opposite as I said in first post about coming up the channel out of the TSS. I have seen trawlers in the Caribbean and Med with the wrong lights and a tug towing a barge two miles behind it, off the Spanish coast, the barge had no light and the tug had one white light. The only yachts I've seen not obeying colregs are on You Tube getting T-boned, I don't know how many idiots there are but I suspect only a few.

I've had two ships call me, the first a cruise ship when we were on passage from Les Aves to Bonaire at night. He said he could see us and they they were going to pass close and not to worry. The second was on passage from Trindad to Grenada at night and a ship called giving the position of a yacht, it was us. He was towing a cable array 2.25 miles long and said at our current speed we would pass half a mile in front. I called back to say as a sailing boat we can't guarantee our speed and we were happy to go behind the array, which we did and he thanked us. Both times it struck me how professional ship skippers are.

 

[prv]

I've just gone back through the thread and I can't find any post that says someone 'disregards their obligations', some are perhaps a bit waffly about what they would do but all say they would take action to avoid ships.

They disregard their obligation to stand on, thus causing confusion.

This is precisely why the colregs don't use the term "right of way". Being the stand-on vessel doesn't mean you have priority and can do whatever you want while everyone else is obligated to get out of your way. It means you must stand on on your current course, so that your actions are predictable to others. Otherwise it's like walking towards someone in a narrow corridor, with both of you politely trying to get out of each other's way and zig-zagging to and fro.

Pete

 

[fireball]

Just slow down or do a 180 turn ...

IIRC, You should only turn in the direction of Travel in the TSS ... so show them your white stern light.

 

[fireball]

Ok so I know text book answer to this but I'd like to know from people experiences what the best and most common scenario is please

I haven't crossed the channel before but plan to later this year. So I know your meant to cross with your boat at right angles and that in the TSS and the ships in the scheme have right of way. But what is the general rule of thumb on this. I mean if you're tootling along and you see a possible collision then make a obvious course change to duck under their stern is the correct thing right. But does this really happen in practice or will they tend to alter well before you get chance to?

You don't say where you're crossing from/to - Ah - I see you're based down in the West Country ... Just checking because so many get their knickers in a twist about TSS's between the solent and cherbourg when there aren't any!

 

[prv]

so many get their knickers in a twist about TSS's between the solent and cherbourg when there aren't any!

Some of them think there are French patrol boats guarding the TSSes that aren't there

Pete

 

[fireball]

Some of them think there are French patrol boats guarding the TSSes that aren't there

Indeed!

It can be quite daunting to set off on a X channel for the first time - no matter where you're setting out from ...

I'm pleased that I did my first crossing as crew for Galadriel to the Scuttlebutt meet (even with the F6 NE wind ! ) It meant that the next trip that I skippered I already had a good idea of what to expect, and subsequent ones have been similar.
In practice you set your own "comfort zone" and take any avoiding action required when a ship looks like it will be in it ... I've changed course, sped up, slowed down and put the engine on in course of avoiding "close" contact.


If anyone one here is unsure about crossing alone for the first time then I suggest putting a post up about when you're thinking of going - you may find other boats heading the same direction - and there's nothing quite so comforting as knowing someone else is in the same boat (well - in theirs, but you know what I mean!). After a couple of crossings you'll (hopefully) wonder what all the fuss is about.