TSS - right of way in practice?

Tim Good

Tim Good

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Ok so I know text book answer to this but I'd like to know from people experiences what the best and most common scenario is please :rolleyes:

I haven't crossed the channel before but plan to later this year. So I know your meant to cross with your boat at right angles and that in the TSS and the ships in the scheme have right of way. But what is the general rule of thumb on this. I mean if you're tootling along and you see a possible collision then make a obvious course change to duck under their stern is the correct thing right. But does this really happen in practice or will they tend to alter well before you get chance to?
 
Sorry to be harsh but you should read the Rules, the ships in the TSS do not have right of way - the TSS rules do not supersede the normal "risk of collision" rules.

In practice unless you have AIS it can be very difficult to judge the relative speed of large ships. I think most will alter course to avoid you long before you can work out whether they are going to pass ahead or astern.

If you feel the need to alter course then it gets a bit complex - altering to go round their stern is dangerous because if the ship decides, or has already decided, to take action then he will be heading for that same piece of sea. By advice would be to stand on - and if you get concerned then turn parallel to, and travelling in the same direction as, the ship.
 
Bear in mind that the authorities supervise all the time and will see you on radar - if you don't stick to the (safety) rules you may pay a heavy fine.
 
bedouin said:
Sorry to be harsh but you should read the Rules, the ships in the TSS do not have right of way - the TSS rules do not supersede the normal "risk of collision" rules.
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I was going to dig out my rule book but got lazy and relied on a Google search instead and my first two references said TSS vessels did have right of way so I stand corrected. Your advice as to course of action seems solid so thanks for that. Appreciated.
 
In reality, don't expect a ship to give way at all, forget the rules and just avoid them, I've seen a coaster go past on autopilot with both bridge doors flapping open and no-one there !

To judge collision courses, before even getting a compass out, note a ships' position relative to say a stanchion on your boat, if it stays in the same place ( and you are sitting in the same spot ) you have a potential collision.

Some ship Captains have to explain every course change in the log to the owners who pay the fuel bill, so bearing that in mind I make it very clear I'm altering course to go behind them.

I go fairly close behind - say 500 yards - so as to get across in front of the next ship coming.

Have as good a radar reflector as you can and white flares, fog can descend quickly mid-Channel.

Despite all that doom and gloom, it's actually a fun trip and you'll get a terrific sense of achievement,

Have fun !
 
Actually let me correct what I said a little.

If you are give way vessel according to the normal rules (i.e. you are under power and ship is to starboard) then altering course to go round the stern is the correct course of action. However if you are the stand on vessel under the normal rules then technically to do that would be to break the rules, or at least get into a very grey area. Of course if you are sailing then there are other considerations. I think it is also fine just to reduce speed and personally I would prefer that to altering course to pass astern of a give way vessel.

However in practice is it much easier than you might fear, it is very rare that you will need to take action. What I find hardest is when I think I am going to cross well clear ahead and then begin to have doubts - because there isn't a good course of action.

But whatever you do you should also consider what might be going through the mind of the skipper of the other vessel and try to make sure your actions don't bring you into conflict with any reasonable action he might take.
 
We always turned to go behind a ship and made it obvious and early so they could stay on course. When we sailed up the Channel from Spain to Lymington we were outside the shipping lane and there were lots of ships outside too, they all gave way in good time.
 
KellysEye said:
We always turned to go behind a ship and made it obvious and early so they could stay on course.
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That's what we do, don't waffle around, make clear course change if necessary. There is of course the other bit - shall not impede - which has caused endless arguments here about just what it means. My interpretation (rightly or wrongly) is that if I cause a ship in the TSS to take avoiding action, I am impeding his progress. In practice, in good visibility, it goes quite smoothly but, we did once find ourselves between two lines of large ships, all going the same way. Some had altered course to pass astern, some didn't. I have on a couple of occasions called ships on VHF to advise our intent to alter course to pass astern of them. Having AIS to see their names from a greater distance would have been an advantage.
 
Mate, new to the ship comes on bridge to take over the watch from Master. Quite a few of yachts clearly visible ahead. Master hands over the watch giving course and instructions, then adds "ignore the ******* WAFIs".

Bear in mind when watching large commercial vessels that they may be more concerned with avoiding a close quarters situation with another large vessel currently five or six miles off. Also, they may be totally unaware of your existence. From a high bridge your mast is well below their horizon and they need consistent radar returns for their ARPA to recognise and plot you on the screen.

For anyone who needs to ask, WAFI is Merchant Navy slang and translates as "Wind Assisted F****** Idiots".
 
bedouin said:
However in practice is it much easier than you might fear, it is very rare that you will need to take action.
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There are some places where that is not true. A good example is crossing the approach to the Maas. You may have a dozen potential collision risks approaching you on either side. They are all stand on to you because of local rules.
 
With over 120 crossing under the belt i can say that very few give way
Some cannot due to draft
Once or twice they have called me to advise of course change ( due to draft)
Generally i get out of their way
Never really a problem & the difficulty is over exaggerated
You need to be more careful of fishing boats. Especially the foreign ones
 
bedouin said:
Sorry to be harsh but you should read the Rules, the ships in the TSS do not have right of way - the TSS rules do not supersede the normal "risk of collision" rules.

In practice unless you have AIS it can be very difficult to judge the relative speed of large ships. I think most will alter course to avoid you long before you can work out whether they are going to pass ahead or astern.

If you feel the need to alter course then it gets a bit complex - altering to go round their stern is dangerous because if the ship decides, or has already decided, to take action then he will be heading for that same piece of sea. By advice would be to stand on - and if you get concerned then turn parallel to, and travelling in the same direction as, the ship.
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10 (j) Vessels less than 20m length & sailing vessels must not impead the safe passage etc. ect. Also other rules for vessels less than 20m & sailing vessels very important to know before going to far.
 
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bedouin said:
Sorry to be harsh but you should read the Rules, the ships in the TSS do not have right of way - the TSS rules do not supersede the normal "risk of collision" rules.

In practice unless you have AIS it can be very difficult to judge the relative speed of large ships. I think most will alter course to avoid you long before you can work out whether they are going to pass ahead or astern.

If you feel the need to alter course then it gets a bit complex - altering to go round their stern is dangerous because if the ship decides, or has already decided, to take action then he will be heading for that same piece of sea. By advice would be to stand on - and if you get concerned then turn parallel to, and travelling in the same direction as, the ship.
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I would aim for his stern & make it obvious
Whilst i have never raised the matter with a ships captain but i am told that they are quite happy with that action
I think one has to apply some common sense & if done in time & if you make your intentions clear it should be ok
However, if you make a hash of it the court will quote the colregs
 
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prr said:
10 (j) Vessels less than 20m length & sailing vessels must not impead the safe passage etc. ect.
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(a) Nothing in col regs gives any vessel right of way.
(b) Being required not to impede is not the same as being give way vessel (I know we can argue about what the differences are)

But seriously, if someone is aiming to cross a TSS then they really ought to at least read Col Regs for themselves (no offence to the OP meant).
 
Sadly none of the rules or tactics help very much if you get caught in fog ..... and don't have RADAR or AIS. You can often be fairly certain of any fog risk for the outward passage, but if you are restrained by the 'back to work on Monday syndrome' you will at some point probably get caught out by fog. 30 years ago very few yachts had RADAR, and of course AIS wasn't invented. It's scary, but most of us survived and many still do!
 
Col Regs fit pretty much with common sense in virtually all cases. When crossing a TSS a yacht should keep out of the way of large vessels using the TSS, take early action to keep clear of the big vessels using the TSS.

The rules cover this:

8(f)(i) "A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel."
8(f)(ii) "A vessel required not to impede the passage of safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision..etc"

Ross
 
As people have said, it's not usually much of a problem. Most of us have in our minds a minimum safe distance for ships and merely contrive to stay outside this zone. Enjoy your trip - safely.
 
VicMallows said:
30 years ago very few yachts had RADAR, and of course AIS wasn't invented. It's scary, but most of us survived and many still do!
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But bear in mind that typical commercial vessel sizes and speeds have greatly increased and manning levels have greatly decreased in the last 30 years so comparisions are not all that useful.

Its also very rare for a commercial vessel to reduce speed in restricted vis, they trust their radar and ARPA. No doubt commercial pressure and the fact that every one behind them in the TSS lane is maintaining normal speed (much like motorway drivers) also keeps them moving with the flow.

About 8 or 9 years ago a largish new yacht was crossing the channel. It had top of the range yacht radar with mini ARPA, but was still run down, fortunately the crew survived. Having read the MAIB report into the incident its fairly obvious that the crew did not know how to use the equipment they were carrying. Radar and AIS are great aids, provided that you take the trouble to learn how to use them to best effect before you need to rely on them.
 
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srm said:
Mate, new to the ship comes on bridge to take over the watch from Master. Quite a few of yachts clearly visible ahead. Master hands over the watch giving course and instructions, then adds "ignore the ******* WAFIs".

Bear in mind when watching large commercial vessels that they may be more concerned with avoiding a close quarters situation with another large vessel currently five or six miles off. Also, they may be totally unaware of your existence. From a high bridge your mast is well below their horizon and they need consistent radar returns for their ARPA to recognise and plot you on the screen.

For anyone who needs to ask, WAFI is Merchant Navy slang and translates as "Wind Assisted F****** Idiots".
Click to expand...

That's helpful!!
 
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