Truck batteries for boats

[Refueler]

"constructing" a Lithium pack doesn't involve any welding. You simply clamp them together with some ply or perspex etc, under mild compression, or clamp them and strap them together with glass reinforced tape. I connect my cells together then with flexible busbars.

I would much rather assemble my own cell packs, i know what cells i'm using and i use my choice of BMS (JK). As they are not in clunky plastic (or Heaven forbid metal), boxes they are more compact and can be neatly fitted to the boat.

I understand that such large cells are not 'spot welded' ... I was just commenting that I do actually construct Li packs ... illustrating that I am not just bolting together - but actually welding them ....

Just to show other guy sort of prices over here ... this is one of the best and cheapest suppliers here :

Battery | Uninterruptible Power Supply Units (UPS) systems, Saules Enerģija | Zemas cenas | Veikals ElectroBase.lv

Sort of puts a slant to the overall picture !!

 

[Dockhead]

. . .

Just to show other guy sort of prices over here ... this is one of the best and cheapest suppliers here :

Battery | Uninterruptible Power Supply Units (UPS) systems, Saules Enerģija | Zemas cenas | Veikals ElectroBase.lv

Sort of puts a slant to the overall picture !!

Why would you buy drop-in lithium batteries at those kind of prices? Maybe you didn't hear that you're now in the EU, and can buy from anywhere in Europe without any problems?

LiTime is the most popular brand of drop-in lithium for yachts, used already for years in the U.S. and now becoming popular in Europe as well. You can buy them here: https://www.litime.de/ for shipment to Latvia without any problem.

The 100AH 12v one, which is made in a format like the 110AH leisure batteries, costs €193. A bit more when you add VAT (I think Latvia, unlike Germany, doesn't free lithium batteries from VAT), but still half the price of the ones you showed.

These batteries use JK BMS's, just like the ones I've put into my own power system. They use the 100AH EVE cells, which are less efficient and less robust than the 280AH cells most home builders use. Breaking up the system into 100AH pseudo-lead batteries is not efficient, but it does save most reconfiguring of the boat systems when transitioning to lithium.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Why would you buy drop-in lithium batteries at those kind of prices? Maybe you didn't hear that you're now in the EU, and can buy from anywhere in Europe without any problems?

LiTime is the most popular brand of drop-in lithium for yachts, used already for years in the U.S. and now becoming popular in Europe as well. You can buy them here: https://www.litime.de/ for shipment to Latvia without any problem.

The 100AH 12v one, which is made in a format like the 110AH leisure batteries, costs €193. A bit more when you add VAT (I think Latvia, unlike Germany, doesn't free lithium batteries from VAT), but still half the price of the ones you showed.

These batteries use JK BMS's, just like the ones I've put into my own power system. They use the 100AH EVE cells, which are less efficient and less robust than the 280AH cells most home builders use. Breaking up the system into 100AH pseudo-lead batteries is not efficient, but it does save most reconfiguring of the boat systems when transitioning to lithium.

Will you please stop repeating this incorrect and dangerous misinformation.

The "drop in" battery is just a set of cells and a BMS in a box. It therefore needs the same system as fitting your own cells and BMS, ie: different fuses, Lithium capable mains charger, DC-DC charger for alternator charging etc.

 

[Refueler]

Why would you buy drop-in lithium batteries at those kind of prices? Maybe you didn't hear that you're now in the EU, and can buy from anywhere in Europe without any problems?

LiTime is the most popular brand of drop-in lithium for yachts, used already for years in the U.S. and now becoming popular in Europe as well. You can buy them here: https://www.litime.de/ for shipment to Latvia without any problem.

The 100AH 12v one, which is made in a format like the 110AH leisure batteries, costs €193. A bit more when you add VAT (I think Latvia, unlike Germany, doesn't free lithium batteries from VAT), but still half the price of the ones you showed.

These batteries use JK BMS's, just like the ones I've put into my own power system. They use the 100AH EVE cells, which are less efficient and less robust than the 280AH cells most home builders use. Breaking up the system into 100AH pseudo-lead batteries is not efficient, but it does save most reconfiguring of the boat systems when transitioning to lithium.

https://www.litime.de/en/products/1...ium-batterie-wohnmobil?variant=49179384676633

Price to me is E 217.99 + shipping .....

 

[PaulRainbow]

Why would you buy drop-in lithium batteries at those kind of prices? Maybe you didn't hear that you're now in the EU, and can buy from anywhere in Europe without any problems?

LiTime is the most popular brand of drop-in lithium for yachts, used already for years in the U.S. and now becoming popular in Europe as well. You can buy them here: https://www.litime.de/ for shipment to Latvia without any problem.

The 100AH 12v one, which is made in a format like the 110AH leisure batteries, costs €193. A bit more when you add VAT (I think Latvia, unlike Germany, doesn't free lithium batteries from VAT), but still half the price of the ones you showed.

These batteries use JK BMS's, just like the ones I've put into my own power system. They use the 100AH EVE cells, which are less efficient and less robust than the 280AH cells most home builders use. Breaking up the system into 100AH pseudo-lead batteries is not efficient, but it does save most reconfiguring of the boat systems when transitioning to lithium.

Can you give a link to where it says these use Eve cells and a JK BMS please ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

https://www.litime.de/en/products/1...ium-batterie-wohnmobil?variant=49179384676633

Price to me is E 217.99 + shipping .....

No Bluetooth, that version costs EE 269.99

Also, they do not use Eve cells or the JK BMS, as claimed by Dockhead, as far as i can see.

 

[Dockhead]

Will you please stop repeating this incorrect and dangerous misinformation.

The "drop in" battery is just a set of cells and a BMS in a box. It therefore needs the same system as fitting your own cells and BMS, ie: different fuses, Lithium capable mains charger, DC-DC charger for alternator charging etc.

You just need correct voltage profile which any modern charger/inverter and alternator regulator can provide. Yes, you need fuses, but you don't need to change the battery boxes, and you don't need contactors etc. That's why they call them "drop in".

You don't need B2B charger if you have an alternator regulator with the right charge profiles. If you want to derate the alternator you can do that with Balmar, Wakespeed, etc. regulators.

But if your point is that you can fit your own cells without all that much more effort and cost, then I agree with you, and that's why I went that way. My biggest expensive was changing all the cabling, and adding monitoring and control gear which was not strictly necessary.

 

[Refueler]

Will you please stop repeating this incorrect and dangerous misinformation.

The "drop in" battery is just a set of cells and a BMS in a box. It therefore needs the same system as fitting your own cells and BMS, ie: different fuses, Lithium capable mains charger, DC-DC charger for alternator charging etc.

I'm looking through various sites and some seem to suggest that there are purpose built Li batts that can literally be drop in replacing LA and work with the 'normal' setup ..... this is where costs appear to spiral up !!

The Li'Time batts that are being plugged on this thread - looking at the pricing - there is the RRP and the OFFER price ...

 

[PaulRainbow]

You just need correct voltage profile which any modern charger/inverter and alternator regulator can provide. Yes, you need fuses, but you don't need to change the battery boxes, and you don't need contactors etc. That's why they call them "drop in".

You don't need B2B charger if you have an alternator regulator with the right charge profiles. If you want to derate the alternator you can do that with Balmar, Wakespeed, etc. regulators.

But if your point is that you can fit your own cells without all that much more effort and cost, then I agree with you, and that's why I went that way. My biggest expensive was changing all the cabling, and adding monitoring and control gear which was not strictly necessary.

Sorry that' just shuffling the goal posts, again.

Whatever you need to change to fit your own cells and BMS you will need to fit for those drop in batteries, there is absolutely 100% no difference. The ONLY differences are that the "drop in" costs more money and almost always has inferior cells and or BMS.

 

[Refueler]

No Bluetooth, that version costs EE 269.99

Also, they do not use Eve cells or the JK BMS, as claimed by Dockhead, as far as i can see.

I think we've thrashed this particular avenue to death .... maybe time to revert to the actual subject OP started ??

 

[Dockhead]

Can you give a link to where it says these use Eve cells and a JK BMS please ?

I have this information from a mate in the States who endurance tested and took apart several of them.

LiTime (formerly AmpereTime) doesn't appear to publish this information, but you can clearly see the cells and BMS in their cutaway illustrations:




I'm sure the geeks at one of the DIY solar forums can confirm (or refute) this information. The illustration above speaks for itself, however, I would say.

 

[Dockhead]

No Bluetooth, that version costs EE 269.99

Also, they do not use Eve cells or the JK BMS, as claimed by Dockhead, as far as i can see.

And where do you have that information from?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm looking through various sites and some seem to suggest that there are purpose built Li batts that can literally be drop in replacing LA and work with the 'normal' setup ..... this is where costs appear to spiral up !!

The Li'Time batts that are being plugged on this thread - looking at the pricing - there is the RRP and the OFFER price ...

"Drop in" batteries that consist of cells and a BMS in a box, such as the LiTime ones are no different than just using your own cells, in terms of required changes to the boat equipment. They usually use inferior cells and BMS. The LiTime ones that Dockhead suggested and said they are using Eve cells and JK BMS are such things, cheap cells and no-name BMS.

The only things i've seen that come close to being true drop i are the horrifically over priced "power stations".

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have this information from a mate in the States who endurance tested and took apart several of them.

LiTime (formerly AmpereTime) doesn't appear to publish this information, but you can clearly see the cells and BMS in their cutaway illustrations:

View attachment 194035


I'm sure the geeks at one of the DIY solar forums can confirm (or refute) this information. The illustration above speaks for itself, however, I would say.

It does in part, all i can see is some nondescript cells and a non JK BMS.

There is no mention anywhere on their site that the cells are Eve or the BMS is JK. If they were, they would shout it out.

In places they mention EV cells, possibly to fool the unwary. EV just means Electric Vehicle, NOT EVE.

 

[PaulRainbow]

And where do you have that information from?

 

[Dockhead]

Another cutaway view of a different LiTime battery. Those are obviously the older single terminal EVE 280K's, and the BMS is also identifiable.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Another cutaway view of a different LiTime battery. Those are obviously the older single terminal EVE 280K's, and the BMS is also identifiable.

So we moved the goalpost to a different battery ?

No matter, it still shows single terminal cells and a non JK BMS

Another LiTime tear down ;

Clearly not Eve cell or JK BMS

That's three now, perhaps time to stop digging.

 

[Dockhead]

Indeed those cells scanned as Sunwoda, which along with EVE is one of the top 10 cell makers.

The ones my mate scanned were EVE.

LiTime is a big maker with a lot of different batteries. I think it's not surprising they get their cells from different plants.

There's nothing inferior about Sunwoda.

 

[Dockhead]

So we moved the goalpost to a different battery ?

No matter, it still shows single terminal cells and a non JK BMS

Another LiTime tear down ;

Clearly not Eve cell or JK BMS

That's three now, perhaps time to stop digging.

I'll ask my mate to post his video when it's published.

But -- what difference does it make? Those are not inferior components. Sunwoda is another world top 10 maker, OEM supplier for industrial users and car makers.

I'm not selling LiTime and didn't buy them myself. The only point I was making is that for those so inclined, for those who don't want to change battery boxes and don't want to build batteries themselves, there are quality drop-in solutions which are not expensive.

I think that point stands.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'll ask my mate to post his video when it's published.

But -- what difference does it make? Those are not inferior components. Sunwoda is another world top 10 maker, OEM supplier for industrial users and car makers.

I'm not selling LiTime and didn't buy them myself. The only point I was making is that for those so inclined, for those who don't want to change battery boxes and don't want to build batteries themselves, there are quality drop-in solutions which are not expensive.

I think that point stands.

Not Eve, not JK.

They don't "drop in" without making the same changes as using your own cell pack.

If you think Lithium is great, that's fine. There are cases where it is great, but there are more cases where lead acid makes sense.

I get enquiries about power systems on a very regular basis, a lot of which ask about Lithium. Maybe the guy weekend sails from his local marina, after being on shore power all week, if his batteries don't quite last a weekend at anchor an addition LA battery or a solar panel fixes that with a minimal cost. There are plenty of other case examples that would make a Lithium installation absurd.

In many cases, Lithium convertees are like ex smokers, just because they stopped it's the worst habit ever and everyone else should stop.