Trojan 31XHS life

[whiteoaks7]

I'm disappointed that my dual parallel Trojan outfit haven't lasted more than four seasons. Trojan quote the life of their batteries in number and depth of cycle but a quick review indicates I should get at least another season out of these two. They are trickle charged during the winter and charged with either (a) Alternator, (b) Solar or (c) Mains charger during the active season. Drain is LED lighting, domestic pumps and fridge overnight. However much I charge them I can't get the resting voltage above 12.2V.

So am I expecting too much? Has anyone achieved a much longer life than this from 12V Trojans? The company are not interested in discussing this in depth (something I've found with Trojan before) other than to re-quote the cycle figures and suggest four years is not surprisingly short.

I think I'm going away from expensive batteries to follow the lead of many people I've talked to by buying cheaper and replacing more(?) often. Views please.

Dave Berry

 

[MAURICE]

Im interested as i will shortly be replacing my batteries I am thinking about trojans but after what you have said will think again.

Maurice

 

[rob2]

It always strikes me as strange that battery manufacturers and suppliers advocate "hi-tec" versions claiming twice the life yet at four times the price! Bearing in mind that's the maximum life expectancy if the system doesn't develop a fault, what is the benefit of spending more?

I can see the benefit of spill proof batteries, but other technologies just seem to hike the price. It isn't actuall;y more than a half hour's work to change the batteries every few years anyway.

Rob.

 

[macd]

Whiteoaks7:
have you tried equalizing them?
Have you checked the electrolyte SG?
Have you kept a log of CG figures and, if so, have you noticed any trends?
How much top-up water do they typically need per month? (That's months of daily use, not idle ones.)
What depth of charge do you routinely cycle them down to?

I'm actually quite surprised that Trojan asked none of these questions.

 

[pcatterall]

I had considered 'high quality/price' but went for cheap and cheerful. My decision was partly influenced as the boat is now shared and I would rather that cheap batteries got ruined than expensive ones.

 

[Sailingsaves]

I'm disappointed that my dual parallel Trojan outfit haven't lasted more than four seasons. Trojan quote the life of their batteries in number and depth of cycle but a quick review indicates I should get at least another season out of these two. They are trickle charged during the winter and charged with either (a) Alternator, (b) Solar or (c) Mains charger during the active season. Drain is LED lighting, domestic pumps and fridge overnight. However much I charge them I can't get the resting voltage above 12.2V.

So am I expecting too much? Has anyone achieved a much longer life than this from 12V Trojans? The company are not interested in discussing this in depth (something I've found with Trojan before) other than to re-quote the cycle figures and suggest four years is not surprisingly short.

I think I'm going away from expensive batteries to follow the lead of many people I've talked to by buying cheaper and replacing more(?) often. Views please.

Dave Berry

Have they always been charged to their maximum voltage (be it 13.8 or 13. 6 or 14volts of whatever is the correct maximum for the batteries)?

What has been the lowest voltage you've drained them to and how often did that occur?

Not familiar with trojans.

Could this be of any use?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x-JfckAt20
Maybe ask forum member Plevier who has vast battery knowledge.

If they are up to 12.2 volts, it at least means that one cell has not shorted (as far as I know; often had batteries that won't get above 10Volts and find SG of one cell is zilch and is shorted)

EDIT - just found this:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/31XHS_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf

14.82 volts bulk charge, float 13.5, equalize charge 16.2 volts.

£192 per battery, I'd expect many years of use if looked after.

Hope you can rejuvenate them somehow.

12.24 volts states they are at 60% charge, open circuit, rested I dare say according to pdf.

From this website:

http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/

" For optimum performance, equalize the batteries (flooded) before putting them back into service. Refer to the Equalizing section for this procedure.

Equalizing is an overcharge performed on flooded lead acid batteries after they have been fully charged.

It reverses the buildup of negative chemical effects like stratification, a condition where acid concentration is greater at the bottom of the battery than at the top. Equalizing also helps to remove sulfate crystals that might have built up on the plates. If left unchecked, this condition, called sulfation, will reduce the overall capacity of the battery.

Many experts recommend that batteries be equalized periodically, ranging anywhere from once a month to once or twice per year. However, Trojan only recommends equalizing when low or wide ranging specific gravity (>0.030) are detected after fully charging a battery.



Step-By-Step Equalizing

Verify the battery(s) are flooded type.
Remove all loads from the batteries.
Connect battery charger.
Set charger for the equalizing voltage (See Table 2 in the Charging section). If your charger doesn’t have an equalization mode, you can unplug the charger and re-plug it back in. This also will conduct the equalization charge.
Start charging batteries.
Batteries will begin gassing and bubbling vigorously.
Take specific gravity readings every hour.
Equalization is complete when specific gravity values no longer rise during the gassing stage. "

 

[macd]

Very comprehensive, sailingsaves.

Just to elaborate a little on Trojan's recommendation about when to equalize: as you write they do not advocate routine periodic equalization, but this:
Trojan recommends equalizing only when batteries have low specific gravity, below 1.250 or wide ranging specific gravity, 0.030, after fully charging a battery.
(The syntax is a little clumsy, but the 'wide-ranging' is between different cells.)

This is precisely why routine SG readings are important.

 

[whiteoaks7]

We fitted a battery conditioner this year apart from that we've relied on the battery chargers 'knowing what to do'. The specs for the chargers seem to make sense delivering the right voltages for the right time - I think.

But on a different note - do people actually do all that in depth battery maintenance? Is that why my Trojans have packed up before I expected them to? I think I've been pretty attentive where they are concerned: I've always routinely checked the level of the electrolyte but never the SG; for the state of health I've always relied on the voltmeter and kept an eye on input and output energy levels.

Which is another reason I think they're dead - I put far more energy into the battery daily than I subsequently take out overnight... ok need to think a bit more about this.

 

[macd]

Regarding "all that battery maintenance", I suppose some do, some don't. Those that don't are perhaps best off with sealed. Checking 12 cells every couple of weeks for electrolyte level takes 10 minutes; a monthly check of SG, maybe 30.
Please bear with me and answer just one of my questions: have you needed to top up the battery acid with water (say once a month or so)?

 

[Plevier]

Worth having a good study of Trojan's Users' Guide at http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf
For deep cycle flooded batteries - which would include the 31XHS - they suggest equalising at 16.2V yes 16.2V see table page 19.
This is a high figure. Have your batteries had anything like this? It might be all they need.

On page 22 about equalising, they say "Trojan recommends equalizing every 30 days or when batteries have a low specificgravity reading after fully charging, below 1.235, or have a wide ranging specific gravity of >0.030 pointsbetween cells. Reference Section 8.3 for instructions on specific gravity measurement."

People often worry about overcharging but far more batteries are damaged by undercharging. Sometimes they need a good kicking!

I haven't found the claimed cycle life figures for this model, but my understanding is that it will not be anywhere near as good as for their T105s. All Trojans are not equal.

 

[macd]

I haven't found the claimed cycle life figures for this model, but my understanding is that it will not be anywhere near as good as for their T105s. All Trojans are not equal.

If memory serves, Plevier, it's about half: 550 v 1100. Or summat like that. I've seen it expressed numerically somewhere, but it's also on the graph mistroma (I think) posted on a recent battery thread*.

* The preponderance of which begs the question, are batteries the new anchors?
(Maybe, but you'd need a helluva hefty windlass.)

 

[Ian_Edwards]

This may cause a mini riot, but I don't understand why people persist with flooded batteries, cheap or expensive.
My current boat has 500 amp hrs of AGMs in the domestic bank, they are 5 years old and I haven't looked at them, except to check the connections once a year.
I try and keep them a 80% or more, occasionally they go to 50% and they have been flat once when the yard left the lights on and didn't plug the mains charger in.
My previous boat had AGM's, the first set I replaced at 8 years, just because I wanted piece of mind and gave them to a friend, he used one to start his Transit van for 3 year until it failed it's MOT and was scrapped. When I sold the boat the I'd had the second set for 5 years, without any maintenance or problems.
No acid to worry about, no SG to measure, never equalised, just fit and forget.
So why bother with flooded batteries?

If I were the OP I'd been looking out the best AGMs on the market and then forgeting about batteries for a few years.

Taking cover behind a nice bottle of Single Malt

 

[Sailingsaves]

This may cause a mini riot, but I don't understand why people persist with flooded batteries, cheap or expensive.
My current boat has 500 amp hrs of AGMs in the domestic bank, they are 5 years old and I haven't looked at them, except to check the connections once a year.
I try and keep them a 80% or more, occasionally they go to 50% and they have been flat once when the yard left the lights on and didn't plug the mains charger in.
My previous boat had AGM's, the first set I replaced at 8 years, just because I wanted piece of mind and gave them to a friend, he used one to start his Transit van for 3 year until it failed it's MOT and was scrapped. When I sold the boat the I'd had the second set for 5 years, without any maintenance or problems.
No acid to worry about, no SG to measure, never equalised, just fit and forget.
So why bother with flooded batteries?

If I were the OP I'd been looking out the best AGMs on the market and then forgeting about batteries for a few years.

Taking cover behind a nice bottle of Single Malt

Good point(s) you make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK4fAzUBmSM

http://www.lesterelectrical.com/news/newsletters/2006feb01.PDF

http://vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html

https://www.bannerbatterien.com/en-gb/Battery-search/Yachts

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/gel-vs-agm.html

Advantages of AGM and other sealed
Spill-proof through acid encapsulation in matting technology
High specific power, low internal resistance, responsive to load
Up to 5 times faster charge than with flooded technology
Better cycle life than with flooded systems
Water retention (oxygen and hydrogen combine to produce water)
Vibration resistance due to sandwich construction
Stands up well to cold temperature
Less prone to sulfation if not regularly topping charged

Limitations
Higher manufacturing cost than flooded (but cheaper than gel)
Sensitive to overcharging (gel has tighter tolerances than AGM)
Capacity has gradual decline (gel has a performance dome)
Low specific energy
Must be stored in charged condition (less critical than flooded)
Not environmentally friendly (has less electrolyte and lead than flooded)

 

[macd]

Taking cover behind a nice bottle of Single Malt

And you claim not to like topping-up

Cheers from behind a 12-year old Caol Ila. These chilly Greek autumnal nights have their compensations.

 

[Plevier]

This may cause a mini riot, but I don't understand why people persist with flooded batteries, cheap or expensive.
My current boat has 500 amp hrs of AGMs in the domestic bank, they are 5 years old and I haven't looked at them, except to check the connections once a year.
I try and keep them a 80% or more, occasionally they go to 50% and they have been flat once when the yard left the lights on and didn't plug the mains charger in.
My previous boat had AGM's, the first set I replaced at 8 years, just because I wanted piece of mind and gave them to a friend, he used one to start his Transit van for 3 year until it failed it's MOT and was scrapped. When I sold the boat the I'd had the second set for 5 years, without any maintenance or problems.
No acid to worry about, no SG to measure, never equalised, just fit and forget.
So why bother with flooded batteries?

If I were the OP I'd been looking out the best AGMs on the market and then forgeting about batteries for a few years.

Taking cover behind a nice bottle of Single Malt

Interesting comments. I suspect a significant factor in your success is that you have 500Ah of them to keep your cycling shallow.
I really would like to know what make(s) you have used. There's probably more variation in quality between makes of AGM than there is in flooded, and a huge price range too.

 

[ex-Gladys]

This may cause a mini riot, but I don't understand why people persist with flooded batteries, cheap or expensive.
My current boat has 500 amp hrs of AGMs in the domestic bank, they are 5 years old and I haven't looked at them, except to check the connections once a year.
I try and keep them a 80% or more, occasionally they go to 50% and they have been flat once when the yard left the lights on and didn't plug the mains charger in.
My previous boat had AGM's, the first set I replaced at 8 years, just because I wanted piece of mind and gave them to a friend, he used one to start his Transit van for 3 year until it failed it's MOT and was scrapped. When I sold the boat the I'd had the second set for 5 years, without any maintenance or problems.
No acid to worry about, no SG to measure, never equalised, just fit and forget.
So why bother with flooded batteries?

If I were the OP I'd been looking out the best AGMs on the market and then forgeting about batteries for a few years.

Taking cover behind a nice bottle of Single Malt

Interesting comments. I suspect a significant factor in your success is that you have 500Ah of them to keep your cycling shallow.
I really would like to know what make(s) you have used. There's probably more variation in quality between makes of AGM than there is in flooded, and a huge price range too.

Definitely +1. Gladys had knackered 3x 75 AH Odysseys (left on a "non smart" charger by PO) when I bought her, which I replaced with 110 AH Squadrons (no longer available) which I badly mistreated in their first year by letting them down to 4V. That was 2006, and I replaced them with 110 AH AX31's from Battery Megastore last winter for £130 a battery. The original Engine battery was an identical Odyssey installed in 2002, which also got replaced last winter... AGM's are now available that are no longer stupid money (equivalent Odysseys are over £250) and in my experience are the way to go

 

[whiteoaks7]

Aparently my mains charger will explode any sealed battery so a change to agm has a cost overhead so I'm stuck with open types.
I wish checking the electrolyte only took ten mins, depends on boat design I suppose.
Consensus seems to be first try equalising then buy cheap if they fail.
Pity Trojan company are not more supportive though.

 

[GrahamM376]

I'm waiting to see how my T125s stand the test of time but, in common with most other users, they're abused in not receiving the charge regime Trojan specify. 14.82v bulk, 13.5 float & 16.2v equalize.

95% of our charging is via solar, occasionally topped up with battery charger run on generator or sometimes shore supply. Neither the solar regulator or mains charger are capable of giving the required charging voltages so, the batteries spend most of the time at float voltage which means they're constantly being undercharged.

Most chargers just have a fixed time for 14.4v bulk charge and then drop to float for as long as left switched on. Only way I can see to charge correctly is by having a variable voltage power supply where the user can choose the output voltage and time accordingly.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Apparently my mains charger will explode any sealed battery so a change to agm has a cost overhead so I'm stuck with open types.

I don't think that this is true, AGM's like other sealed batteries are valve regulated, so if you do push the voltage up so that they produce lot of gas the valve will blow. You'll probably knacker the battery, but it is very unlikely to blow up.

I can't see a battery which will blow-up getting CE (or any other) approval for sale, especially if bought by a reputable manufacture.

The batteries I referred to in post #12 were, if I remember correctly, were Trojan AGM (2@110 amp hr) on my Parker 275, which had 220 amp hrs of domestic, but very light loads, just lights and basic navigation aids.

The current batteries are Elecsol, however, the Southerly has much bigger loads, 5KVA inverter, 5KV bow thruster, electric winches, electric windlass and a full sweet of Raymarine Nav gear, including a powerful autopilot.

Last time I looked I couldn't see any AGMs sold by Trojan, I'd have brought Trojan AGMs again if I could have, and Elecsol no longer seem to be in business, which I think is a great shame, their technology, which has carbon fibre in the plates, seems to be quite good.

The "Topping Up" I was doing last night was from a bottle of Dalwhinnie Winter's Gold ..... very nice and smooth:tranquillity:

 

[macd]

I wish checking the electrolyte only took ten mins, depends on boat design I suppose.
Consensus seems to be first try equalising then buy cheap if they fail.

Not just design. I live aboard, so it's convenient, I don't have to add in any travel time, nor does it reduce the hours I can have at sea. For most boat owners, it would be different.

I'd definitely try equalizing: sounds like you've nothing to lose.
If maintenance is tricky, sealed may suit you better.

My point about asking about water loss was that if they didn't need topping up periodically, then they were not being fully charged, whatever any instruments said to the contrary. As Plevier wrote in post #10 (and he knows his battery stuff probably better than anyone else on the forums), there are few more dependable ways of prematurely killing a battery.