Trial sail - when selling a boat

[Mandarin331]

Just wondering what the 'normal' approach to this is and would value the opinions of the assembled experts here.

We are selling our boat and a deposit has been put down after extensive viewings, there will be a full survey this week with her lifted.

However our broker has indicated that the buyer wants to take her out for a trial sail before finalising and has engaged a RYA skipper to do this 'so we don't have to worry about being there'.

1) Is it normal to have a trial sail, she's in the water so the engine was run for them this morning, the sails can be checked in situ etc etc.

2) Is it also normal for the buyer to engage a professional skipper to take your boat out without you, and if so what's the liability of that skipper - our broker blithely said ' you're insured aren't you?'

 

[Tranona]

There are no hard and fast rules, but generally a trial sail is not common, particularly before an offer is accepted.

However if the contract has been signed and it is the normal contract, the buyer is committed to purchase, subject to the survey being satisfactory, so they cannot withdraw if they don't like the way it sails - unless that is a condition of the contract! You have the deposit and presumably the boat is insured, so there is little to lose, particularly as there is a qualified skipper. However, I would make it clear that a "satisfactory" trial sale is not a condition.

I suspect that the buyers are a bit nervous and just want reassurance. One of the arguments about a trial sil is that very little can be really learned in a short sail and an experienced skipper can make the boat look good. On the other hand it does give the opportunity to demonstrate all the systems on the boat which is often a condition but described as a sea trial and part of the survey.

 

[Seajet]

Sounds a little dodgy not to say downright arrogant to me, I'd want to be there and in charge.

I don't know the insurance angle but it certainly needs checking; I hope I'm wrong but doesn't this sound like the prelude to a lower offer ?

 

[ghostlymoron]

I don't see what's wrong with a trial sail, I would always test drive a car before I bought it. As far as insurance is concerned, I would check with your insurers as they may require the policy holder to be on board.

 

[pvb]

Nothing wrong with a sea trial, but it's wise for the seller to lay down some rules.

When I sold my boat last year, the Pre-Sale Agreement (signed when the deposit was handed over) included the wording - "The Purchaser shall be entitled within 7 days after inspection and survey, to require the Seller to perform a sea trial of the Boat. The duration of the sea trial shall be proportionate to the cost and complexity of the Boat and its systems but unless specifically agreed at the date of this Agreement shall not be shorter than 20 minutes nor longer than 2 hours. The Seller shall be obliged to insure the Boat for the duration of the sea trial. The Purchaser shall be entitled to be accompanied by up to two surveyors or advisers, any co-purchasers and not more than 1 member of his immediate family, subject to space constraints. The sea trial shall take place in reasonable weather conditions and not more than 2 miles offshore. Unless agreed otherwise the Purchaser and his party shall be responsible for the supply of their own lifejackets and other safety equipment."

In the event, the buyer didn't want a sea trial anyway.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I've got a strong sense of deja-vu coming over me....

 

[Tranona]

Nothing wrong with a sea trial, but it's wise for the seller to lay down some rules.

When I sold my boat last year, the Pre-Sale Agreement (signed when the deposit was handed over) included the wording - "The Purchaser shall be entitled within 7 days after inspection and survey, to require the Seller to perform a sea trial of the Boat. The duration of the sea trial shall be proportionate to the cost and complexity of the Boat and its systems but unless specifically agreed at the date of this Agreement shall not be shorter than 20 minutes nor longer than 2 hours. The Seller shall be obliged to insure the Boat for the duration of the sea trial. The Purchaser shall be entitled to be accompanied by up to two surveyors or advisers, any co-purchasers and not more than 1 member of his immediate family, subject to space constraints. The sea trial shall take place in reasonable weather conditions and not more than 2 miles offshore. Unless agreed otherwise the Purchaser and his party shall be responsible for the supply of their own lifejackets and other safety equipment."

In the event, the buyer didn't want a sea trial anyway.

A sea trial is not the same thing as a trial sail.

A sea trial is to check that those things that cannot be checked with a static inspection are actually working. Common with MOBOs to confirm the boat will meet its design speed.

A trial sail is to see whether the buyer likes the boat and the way it sails - or a nice jolly at somebody else's expense - depending on your viewpoint. The situation in this case is different if the contract has been signed provided it is clear that the buyer cannot withdraw.

 

[jac]

I'd worry about the bit about you not being there. I would insist on someone there to represent you. Whilst I don't suspect they are going to just sail off with the boat it is a risk - why else insist that you are not there!

Secondly - all boats / systems have their own peculiarities that you can explain to them that a skipper who doesn't know the boat couldn't know. e.g. I trip the breaker on the windlass when not in use. Takes a second to press the button and use it but if a new person were to come along they might think the windlass didn't work

 

[Skylark]

As others have said, it's not entirely unreasonable to want to sail a boat before buying. But, what is the buyer aiming to achieve, how do you measure the achievement of his aims and, most importantly, what if it doesn't measure up to requirements?

With regard to hiring a skipper, my view is "do what you want but my boat isn't going anywhere unless I'm on it" I rather like the clause posted by pvb, too.

 

[pvb]

I rather like the clause posted by pvb, too.

Shamelessly lifted from an RYA draft, as I recall.

 

[Resolution]

As Tranona has said, the key point is exactly what was in the contract (which has presumably been signed by both parties?). Assuming it is in customary form and that you can provide all the title documents, then the contact will be conditional only on satisfactory survey and there will be no mention of a trial sail. One good reason why a trial sail is not normally a condition of the contract is that it is tricky to define in legal words just what would be "satisfactory". Buyers have to have prior knowledge of the characteristics of that type of yacht and how they will suit the buyer. They will normally protect themselves against hidden defects by employing a surveyor, as per the contract of sale.
Legalities aside, it can be very helpful to a new owner to have the old owner on board to explain how all the little things work. So if it is convenient to you and clearly understood NOT to be a condition precedent to the sale, then a trial sail can be a good thing. Certainly the last time I sold a much-loved (and hammered!) boat I took the contracted buyer out for a day's sail and was pleased to find that he was a nice guy and a good sailor. Completion of the sale process was a pleasure.

 

[Floyd Raser]

Just wondering what the 'normal' approach to this is and would value the opinions of the assembled experts here.

We are selling our boat and a deposit has been put down after extensive viewings, there will be a full survey this week with her lifted.

However our broker has indicated that the buyer wants to take her out for a trial sail before finalising and has engaged a RYA skipper to do this 'so we don't have to worry about being there'.

1) Is it normal to have a trial sail, she's in the water so the engine was run for them this morning, the sails can be checked in situ etc etc.

2) Is it also normal for the buyer to engage a professional skipper to take your boat out without you, and if so what's the liability of that skipper - our broker blithely said ' you're insured aren't you?'

Just a deposit? Is that the same as a contract as some seem to intimate?
I would agree to the trial but I would want to be there. I wouldn't be too impressed by them "engaging" an RYA Skipper; if they are spending a lot of money they are into sailing and probably know one who will do it for a drink. Even I know an RYA Skipper here in Leicester!
There are though, a lot of threads on here about people who agree to buy at one price then lower the offer later in the process. It's happened to me with a car sale so it seems to be the way forward!

 

[Twister_Ken]

A trial can discover things that sitting in the dock, or on the hard won't reveal - state of sails, do the heads work on both tacks, ditto the engine cooling. Did that when I bought my Twister and went out with the broker, not the owner. So not unreasonable to ask for a trial sail, but the contract shouldn't be worded to be a deal breaker just because the purchaser doesn't like some insignificant aspect of the boat's behaviour.

 

[ianj99]

Alarm bells would ring if I was the seller.
Why would the buyer not want to be on board for the trial sail unless we are taking of a very low priced boat, but this isn't likely if they've felt the need to engage an RYA skipper.
Or is it because they are complete novices and don't want to show themselves up?
Perhaps the RYA skipper is a friend who has been asked to find faults which could be used to barter down the price.

 

[ghostlymoron]

If the buyer has paid a deposit prior to the (non contractual) trial sail, I don't see what's to loss. If he decides he doesn't want it, he loses his deposit. If it were before contract and deposit there's a risk that he'll pull out of the sale.

 

[ghostlymoron]

How do you define a RYA skipper? Day skipper, coastal, ocean?

 

[pandos]

I'd say not to do it as proposed,

A trial sail with you and the buyer on board prior to contract or at this stage you and a surveyor on board would be legitimate but whats the point in having a third party sailing your boat unless it is for the purchasers to take his view on board in completing the sale, the contract has put the matter of the sale essentially into the hands of the surveyor.

But if you want/need the sale and the buyer insists you may be damned one way or the other,

In any case go along yourself and insist the surveyor goes too so that if any issues arise you can deal with them there and then, insist the survey is completed pre-sail so that if the surveyor is happy on the day you are probably home and dry.

I'v taken a few out for trial sails and without fail all were just tire kickers looking for a days entertainment... had a few genuine potential buyers ( I think of them as genuine because they later bought similar boats) all of whom were satisfied with a 20 minute look around, knew what they were looking at and knew what to look out for.

best of luck with the sale,

Tony.

 

[john_q]

I'v taken a few out for trial sails and without fail all were just tire kickers looking for a days entertainment... had a few genuine potential buyers ( I think of them as genuine because they later bought similar boats) all of whom were satisfied with a 20 minute look around, knew what they were looking at and knew what to look out for.

Tony.

Totally agree about the tyre kickers, the last trial sail I did on our 31 foot Sparkmans and Stephens in Rio Dulce, Guatemala we have up for sale went like this.

• Buyer convinces the broker she is looking for boats in the 20,000 to 26,000 US dollar range

• She looks at the boat with a relation and REALLY likes the boat and asks for a trial sail.

• I took the buyer out for a 3 hour trail sail (well, it was a nice day and I like sailing the boat)

• At the end the buyer said “Wow, I really want this boat so I am going back to California to harvest Marijuana until I have saved the money to buy the boat!!!”

I was not amused and told the buyer to either put down a deposit now or bug off.

So next time, I will be charging by the hour for trail sails, refundable on purchase

 

[neil1967]

We had a trial/test sail when we bought our current boat, and it did identify issues that could not be identified when the yacht was ashore, for example the generator did not work, and neither did the wind instruments - arguably the latter could have been identified ashore, but it is only when sailing the boat that some things become very apparent. The purpose of the test sail was to assure us that we were essentially getting what we had contracted to buy. In the case of the generator, it became apparent that it would require significant expenditure to make it work or replace it, so we negotiated a discount. MInor stuff that you might expect to not be 100% on a boat of her age we let go. I can certainly see why someone would want a test sail - essentially it's an extension of the survey.

Edit - our boat was ashore when we viewed her. If someone is buying a boat that is already afloat and all systems can be run up and shown operational, then I guess there's less validity for a test sail, although as a buyer I did pick up many nuggets about the boat that I didn't have to learn the hard way later.

 

[garvellachs]

Just wondering what the 'normal' approach to this is and would value the opinions of the assembled experts here.

We are selling our boat and a deposit has been put down after extensive viewings, there will be a full survey this week with her lifted.

However our broker has indicated that the buyer wants to take her out for a trial sail before finalising and has engaged a RYA skipper to do this 'so we don't have to worry about being there'.

1) Is it normal to have a trial sail, she's in the water so the engine was run for them this morning, the sails can be checked in situ etc etc.

2) Is it also normal for the buyer to engage a professional skipper to take your boat out without you, and if so what's the liability of that skipper - our broker blithely said ' you're insured aren't you?'

The buyer sounds very interested but cautious too. Check your insurance obviously, ask to talk to the RYA person beforehand perhaps, maybe offer to meet up on the pontoon before they go - but aside from that I'd try hard not to put off what is potentially a healthy sale. How many other buyers are in the wings?