Croftie
Well-Known Member
Pete, thats my Craftinsure policy not Porto's, prob different wording. I am surprised your ins co does not ask for one after xx years. For once I agree with Porto
Topsail Renewal
- Thread starter jrudge
- Start date
Forty_Two
Well-Known Member
It's no big deal. Having a 52 year old wooden boat surveys happen about every 13 years for me.
I'm with N&G via Brokers Fastnet. Found they are happy to agree not to enforce specific surveyor's items if i disagree for good reasons.
I'm with N&G via Brokers Fastnet. Found they are happy to agree not to enforce specific surveyor's items if i disagree for good reasons.
petem
Well-Known Member
So you agree that all survey defects, even cosmetic ones, are fixed before insurance is granted?Pete, thats my Craftinsure policy not Porto's, prob different wording. I am surprised your ins co does not ask for one after xx years. For once I agree with Porto
petem
Well-Known Member
For a wooden boat, I'd definitely agree that a specialist survey every x years is a good idea.
For me, between myself and the people who look after my boat (one of whom is an ex Fairline service engineer), I would be surprised if a surveyor found anything that I wasn't already aware of.
Croftie
Well-Known Member
Pete, we are talking about an insurance survey not a pre purchase. I doubt an insurance co is interested in the condition of cosmetic items ie cockpit canvas showing age in the event of a claim involving a collision or sinking. They want to know if
1, Safety items, sea cocks, P brackets, rudder stocks, nav equipment etc etc are OK
2, Current boat value in light of age, condition etc
In my case the surveyor valued it well in excess of the price I paid because of the improvements I have made and the general market trends so on renewal I can justify increasing the sum insured.
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petem
Well-Known Member
That's fair enough if it was an insurance survey but Porto's survey above seems to be 40 pages which would seem to be a full survey to me with items flagged red, amber and green.
Croftie
Well-Known Member
Mine was 16 pages inc photo's
Portofino
Well-Known Member
It’s an insurance survey 30 pages with pics . With it comes a valuation which as I said is the only currency ins Co accept * .
A tear in a seat cushion would be dealt with as Forty Two said .Assuming it ever got mentioned.That’s your assumption.
I don’t think stuff like that would get a mention tbh .But might be reflected in the value figure I guess .
Interestingly it’s says in one of the 30 pages no evidence of any previous repairs / accident damage FWIW .
No evidence of water ingress on or under the cabin soles etc .
But the meaty stuff has “ passed “ so to speak which is reassuring .Yes I did mentally build up a contingency fund eg “ seacocks need replacing after [ insert date ] , rudder stocks show [ insert mm play ] , shaft seals etc etc .
It does get hammered in big seas because it’s comfortable to the occupants, its 18.5 Tons on the survey .Not looking for build argument but it’s standing up well over a 1000 hrs .
Fortunately nothing meaty came up .
You know Blow An Other Thousand(s) .
As I said pretty thorough I think .Even engine mounts , they do I suppose sag with time and or rubber delaminates etc .
But hey oh they were deemed OK .
Do the anodes work ? Is there any pitting on anything etc etc
What sort of yard bill is this years gonna be etc ?
* Valuations
I did once a while back attempt to up the value of mine .This was before the covid staycation factor .Just more they don’t make any more and the supply / demand dynamic esp in Italy .
Colemans acting for all the underwriter s told me despite the internet they would need a professional valuation to up lift the cover value pref from a surveyor.Although a broker on headed paper caries a certain weight , the gold std is a proper survey on a old boat .That’s hard to refute a 3 rd party professional .
I don‘ t know when , at what age this kicks in .By way of example Sunseeker shield ( Amlin based ) did a like for like or what you paid inc extras on a new boat up to 3 years .
Personally I would have thought from 7 yrs they ought be surveyed …..thinking seacocks , and if they have started to come apart out of sight .
It a gift to boaters to never have a survey and expect cover , or indeed go to 20 yrs and more inho .
Take iirc hull glazing on MikeFs boat he reported and published pics of a small crack part way up on a huge hull mid cabin window .
Conflicting advise from all sources ( but not a surveyor) what to do .Replace or just live with it .About a 10 yr old boat .
Well if that crack propagates on passage and water ingress ( big seas ) sinks it or ends up a huge claim ……..
Nice to have a survey done before , spotted this it failed , it’s been replaced by Ferretti as a result of the findings.Yes ?
Then you can push back a potential refute ….” Hang on it was replaced mr loss adjuster ….cough up ! “
A tear in a seat cushion would be dealt with as Forty Two said .Assuming it ever got mentioned.That’s your assumption.
I don’t think stuff like that would get a mention tbh .But might be reflected in the value figure I guess .
Interestingly it’s says in one of the 30 pages no evidence of any previous repairs / accident damage FWIW .
No evidence of water ingress on or under the cabin soles etc .
But the meaty stuff has “ passed “ so to speak which is reassuring .Yes I did mentally build up a contingency fund eg “ seacocks need replacing after [ insert date ] , rudder stocks show [ insert mm play ] , shaft seals etc etc .
It does get hammered in big seas because it’s comfortable to the occupants, its 18.5 Tons on the survey .Not looking for build argument but it’s standing up well over a 1000 hrs .
Fortunately nothing meaty came up .
You know Blow An Other Thousand(s) .
As I said pretty thorough I think .Even engine mounts , they do I suppose sag with time and or rubber delaminates etc .
But hey oh they were deemed OK .
Do the anodes work ? Is there any pitting on anything etc etc
What sort of yard bill is this years gonna be etc ?
* Valuations
I did once a while back attempt to up the value of mine .This was before the covid staycation factor .Just more they don’t make any more and the supply / demand dynamic esp in Italy .
Colemans acting for all the underwriter s told me despite the internet they would need a professional valuation to up lift the cover value pref from a surveyor.Although a broker on headed paper caries a certain weight , the gold std is a proper survey on a old boat .That’s hard to refute a 3 rd party professional .
I don‘ t know when , at what age this kicks in .By way of example Sunseeker shield ( Amlin based ) did a like for like or what you paid inc extras on a new boat up to 3 years .
Personally I would have thought from 7 yrs they ought be surveyed …..thinking seacocks , and if they have started to come apart out of sight .
It a gift to boaters to never have a survey and expect cover , or indeed go to 20 yrs and more inho .
Take iirc hull glazing on MikeFs boat he reported and published pics of a small crack part way up on a huge hull mid cabin window .
Conflicting advise from all sources ( but not a surveyor) what to do .Replace or just live with it .About a 10 yr old boat .
Well if that crack propagates on passage and water ingress ( big seas ) sinks it or ends up a huge claim ……..
Nice to have a survey done before , spotted this it failed , it’s been replaced by Ferretti as a result of the findings.Yes ?
Then you can push back a potential refute ….” Hang on it was replaced mr loss adjuster ….cough up ! “
Zing
Well-Known Member
I just got a quote at 2.0% hull value from them. Named storms excluded. Full NCD. Bloody scalping waste of time again. To be fair though, alternative quotes are high too, but are less.
petem
Well-Known Member
What's the point of insurance with names storms excluded?! You might as well just go 3rd party.
Zing
Well-Known Member
Indeed. I did. TBH I would have done so on cost alone. i. e. to self insure.
Croftie
Well-Known Member
Ok Pete so no ins survey for you but I would think especially in your situation (1/3 share) it would be wise. I assume you set up the share scheme so probably the one who deals with ins etc? What is your boat insured for (no figure needed). Is it the same as you paid? We know boats have gone up in value, yours is prob 10 - 20k more to replace than you paid 4/5 years ago so if you have increased it to reflect that, what have you got to prove the increase? As I said you are a "shareholder" so if it was a total loss what would the others say if the boat was not ins for market value or you could not prove the increased value you placed on the boat is justified to the ins co.
If mine was a total loss and not paid its current market value then its my fault..... Perhaps you should consider a volantery survey either an "insurance" survey or even just some sort of "valuation" survey from a qualified person. After all its only going to cost you 1/3 of the cost and I doubt your fellow shareholders would object.
petem
Well-Known Member
I increased the insured value of the boat by £20k a couple of years ago. The insurer ('Y') were happy to increase it in return for an increase in premium. I'm not sure what you mean by "what have you got to prove the increase". It's an agree value policy so the sum assured will be paid out in the event of a total loss.
The boat was surveyed five years ago and all issues were fixed at that point. We renewed all sea cocks a couple of years ago.
I'm not sure what benefit another survey would give me as it's not required from an insurance perspective.
Croftie
Well-Known Member
Fine Pete, as long as you are happy and feel secure thats all that matters. I have previously quoted that my ins required re survey which I have done so all good.
Hooligan
Well-Known Member
Exactly same experience. Now with Curtis, was with Topsail/Y. 25 % difference. We used Coleman in the past as well and on the big claim I had they were good. I do not believe that there are such big issues re the leave the boat situation and certainly in my Curtis docs this is covered to my satisfaction. However the topic of unattended boat has been beaten to death so no point flogging the dead beast anymore.
trialframe
Well-Known Member
I went with Curtis last year (after being with Y for a few years) & just had my Curtis renewal - up 28%.
Was hoping not to have to shop around this time but.... here we go again!
Was hoping not to have to shop around this time but.... here we go again!
alt
Well-Known Member
I requested an increase of €15k (given the market research) on my boat with Topsail this year. They wouldn't allow it without a broker valuation. I'm in the depths of the West of Ireland.... good luck to finding a broker here.
I renewed for convenience, but I already have a reminder set for 2 months before next years renewal to shop around. I can't figure it out.... I was happy to pay the premium for a higher agreed value.
PS. Their argument was that I had to have a valuation from a broker if I wanted to 'insure for more than paid'.... Despite the fact I paid more than the newer (now higher) valuation... fell on deaf ears. Bonkers, IMHO.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Yes I have had this uplift valuation conversation with ins Brokers as well .Several times .See my post ^ #88 “ valuations “
Its an anti fraud measure .
They go on your Bos and unlikely to pay out more …..unless you have a proper valuation as I said in #88 .
Was told very unlikely in Coleman’s experience ( deal with the lot of underwriters ) they exceed the bos in a pay out .
Thats 1/2 of my motivation for the insurance survey because armed with this bit of paper ( actually 30 page doc ) I have increased , or the ins Co have accepted a uplift in valuation of 40% of the bos .As I have what they have requested , every ins broker I have dealt with has followed this line .
I have not used Curtis , but I would be surprised if they can use a figure that’s dropped off a cloud , ie what’s in the owners head .
The underwriters be it Amlin , Zurich , Allianz etc etc will at the investigation of a total loss pay out use the bos or professional valuation , yacht brokers is ok ish and cheaper but as I said a proper ins survey is un refutable because it’s dealt with hull structure etc the behind the scenes stuff .
The anti fraud works like this .
take £100k buy a FT targa 34 with a bos for £100k .Do what PeteM has done insure it for £120K because you think it s worth that .Sink it ./ torch it , fain a theft etc Collect £120 K if they pay out a full loss .
Buy another boat from the brokers window @£120K , bos etc .Insure it for £150K , fein another total loss = collect £150K
Rinse and repeat
.See by paying out the original bos £100 K it disincentives “ an insurance job “
It ‘s no different to any other high value insurance UPLIFT you need a professional market value valuation .Be the item , watch , gun , classic car as well as boat .
You can’t just trump up a figure in your head after 10 mins of tinterneting .
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
Re unattended @ anchor
I did all the “ flogging “ with the underwriters for you all ( the forum ) and happily passed on the results .
Do with the info what you will .
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petem
Well-Known Member
Porto, you are talking rubbish. I have an agreed value policy and that's what will be paid out in the even of a total loss.
I know you're unable to digest policy conditions so there's no point in quoting those but even the website makes this clear...
Motorboat Insurance | Topsail Insurance | Boat Insurance Policies
""Your motorboat policy will be issued on an agreed value basis, so in the event of a total loss claim you will be paid out what you insured the vessel for."
I know you're unable to digest policy conditions so there's no point in quoting those but even the website makes this clear...
Motorboat Insurance | Topsail Insurance | Boat Insurance Policies
""Your motorboat policy will be issued on an agreed value basis, so in the event of a total loss claim you will be paid out what you insured the vessel for."