Topsail Renewal

[Portofino]

Prove it! Post a photo of the Legends page please!

He users the anchor symbol .Typical a paragraph describes a pic , a pic taken from a chart whereby he used words like “ sheltered “ and some others to describe it .
Theres no special legend , it’s his words under the mapette he has lifted from a chart for his book .
He‘s not the only pilot author to use “ shelter “ in regards to anchorage either they all do it .
If you have ever been touring mean 100 miles + a day to unfamiliar/ new areas with a view to anchoring off ( as opposed to marina hopping ) this is precisely the info one needs imho .
Irrespective whether you want to leave it unattended or not .
Along with Met and waves , wind finder etc .
Indeed I have turned up at busy marinas to find the inn is full etc and because the night before I was pouring over Rods book(s) had a suitable plan B anchorage.

Eg once the Met said mistral due diligence in 48 hrs .So we still went to the Porquerolles, was calm on the travel day some 80 miles or so .Once there got on a buoy for under 15 m at Port Cros . Falls under “ professionally laid and maintained ….. “ - if you care to revisit the red box I highlighted in post # 135 ^^^ .
A forecast the mistral breezed in we were on a buoy indeed in a sheltered place , the buoys are there for a reason .
Spent a happy 3 days @ port Cros .Both of us went ashore , boat tied safely out of the F8 on a buoy in what Rod described as sheltered anchorage.The greater than 15 m and there was some were anchored .
3 lovely french restaurants to go to , one each night .

 

[petem]

He users the anchor symbol .Typical a paragraph describes a pic , a pic taken from a chart whereby he used words like “ sheltered “ and some others to describe it .
Theres no special legend , it’s his words under the mapette he has lifted from a chart for his book .
He‘s not the only pilot author to use “ shelter “ in regards to anchorage either they all do it .
If you have ever been touring mean 100 miles + a day to unfamiliar/ new areas with a view to anchoring off ( as opposed to marina hopping ) this is precisely the info one needs imho .
Irrespective whether you want to leave it unattended or not .
Along with Met and waves , wind finder etc .
Indeed I have turned up at busy marinas to find the inn is full etc and because the night before I was pouring over Rods book(s) had a suitable plan B anchorage.

Eg once the Met said mistral due diligence in 48 hrs .So we still went to the Porquerolles, was calm on the travel day some 80 miles or so .Once there got on a buoy for under 15 m at Port Cros . Falls under “ professionally laid and maintained ….. “ - if you care to revisit the red box I highlighted in post # 135 ^^^ .
A forecast the mistral breezed in we were on a buoy indeed in a sheltered place , the buoys are there for a reason .
Spent a happy 3 days @ port Cros .Both of us went ashore , boat tied safely out of the F8 on a buoy in what Rod described as sheltered anchorage.The greater than 15 m and there was some were anchored .
3 lovely french restaurants to go to , one each night .

The point you're missing is that an anchorage is never 'sheltered' 24/7/365. Indeed, the cruising guides will always give the circumstances when an anchorage is/isn't sheltered. For example, they might describe an anchorage as being sheltered in all but Northerly winds.

So you might pitch up at your anchorage and drop the hook at 11am when there's a nice Westerly wind blowing. You tender ashore and go for a bike ride. An hour later, the wind has unexpectedly changed direction and there's now a Northerly wind blowing your boat onto the beach.

What you thought was a sheltered anchorage is no longer. If your boat gets wrecked then the insurer can claim that you weren't in a sheltered anchorage.

And before you say it, good seamanship, etc doesn't trump an exclusion.

Whereas my Topsail policy, would cover me. All I need to prove is that my damage is accidental.

 

[Osmosis]

The Craftinsure website clearly states if your vessel 20 years of age or over you must have a survey .Easy to understand and clearly not worth time and effort in obtaining a quote as you are just wasting your money if suckered in.
Craftinsure also state if you have a survey all recommendations must be complied with.
It makes sense to complete the work although some jobs take time and with no time limit on the policy then you are in effect signing your rights away at time of purchase.
This is wrong and misleading check out Financial Ombudsman decisions pages .As an example the surveyor requests two jubilee clips on a hose to a skin fitting and you do not add a second , a fire on board results in a claim Craftinsure are saying they would not pay the claim based on your failure to add a second jubilee clip . Its a fire and totally different but weazle words give Craftinsure a way out.
Any policy holder with this wording should make contact directly with Zurich Compliance over this unfair and misleading wording.
Or contact Financial Conduct Authority.

 

[Portofino]

The point you're missing is that an anchorage is never 'sheltered' 24/7/365. Indeed, the cruising guides will always give the circumstances when an anchorage is/isn't sheltered. For example, they might describe an anchorage as being sheltered in all but Northerly winds.

So you might pitch up at your anchorage and drop the hook at 11am when there's a nice Westerly wind blowing. You tender ashore and go for a bike ride. An hour later, the wind has unexpectedly changed direction and there's now a Northerly wind blowing your boat onto the beach.

What you thought was a sheltered anchorage is no longer. If your boat gets wrecked then the insurer can claim that you weren't in a sheltered anchorage.

And before you say it, good seamanship, etc doesn't trump an exclusion.

Whereas my Topsail policy, would cover me. All I need to prove is that my damage is accidental.

I think we all agree its best in the event of a claim not to fall into a row and end up on the wrong side of with them over there own weasel words , seamanship, maintenance, seaworthiness, recklessness. No body seems to have with craftinsure on the other thread , it’s the same underwriters N+G handling vast volumes of claims perfectly satisfactory.

Craftinsures unattended @ anchor cover is easy to adhere to imho .
In the med it’s difficult actually not to anchor correctly because it’s gen shallow , you can snorkel to see the anchor dug in and let put ridiculously long s scopes out .Also in the summer once you get to know the local weather patterns wind veer isn’t an issue .
You can of course never leave the vessel with no one it .

You really need to ask Topsail to get a written response to your scenarios re leaving it unattended.
I think Chris H mentioned in ( there’s a few ins threads running and some overlap ) a thread Pants is a defo you arn’t covered .
Theres nothing written it’s all silent in there blurb - my salient point .= don’t assume because the policies silent on a matter in this case unattended @ anchor it therefore drops into the next sq peg forced into a round hole , which is your point when you say “ accidental damage “ .
It all depends on the particular circumstances .They do the shape sorting not you .
Pants take the position ( in relation to a Pershing 52 ) no boat should be left unattended, but fail to inform policy holders up front .I guess they are playing the good seamanship card ? Leaving some one competent on board .

 

[Portofino]

The Craftinsure website clearly states if your vessel 20 years of age or over you must have a survey .Easy to understand and clearly not worth time and effort in obtaining a quote as you are just wasting your money if suckered in.
Craftinsure also state if you have a survey all recommendations must be complied with.
It makes sense to complete the work although some jobs take time and with no time limit on the policy then you are in effect signing your rights away at time of purchase.
This is wrong and misleading check out Financial Ombudsman decisions pages .As an example the surveyor requests two jubilee clips on a hose to a skin fitting and you do not add a second , a fire on board results in a claim Craftinsure are saying they would not pay the claim based on your failure to add a second jubilee clip . Its a fire and totally different but weazle words give Craftinsure a way out.
Any policy holder with this wording should make contact directly with Zurich Compliance over this unfair and misleading wording.
Or contact Financial Conduct Authority.

Thats the whole point in a SAGA over 55 s car insurance kinda way .It gets rid of the dross with boats and with cars SAGA get rid of 21 y premier ship footballers with Lamborghinis .

If a prospect can’t be arse to , A have a survey , B then follow up the recommendations, then as far as they are concerned they can seek cover else where .Passing the savings on to the genuine punters who comply .
Thats there modus operandi.Cut out the potentially loss maker claimants , carry fewer staff because the clams desk is tiny .

Remember we are not from a £ pov comparing like for like , more like Craftinsure , for me @£632 versus £1200 - £2000 a significant saving , which if you were to multiply up over the 7 yrs the survey is valid , just keeps on giving .

Same SAGA style target the least claiming history cohorts applies to the “ vessel no longer than 50 ft “

Presumably ( bit like twenty yr olds in Lambos ) the payouts rapidly rocket upwards over 50 ft .It’s a market they deliberately avoid .

Similarly with my old Amlin based policies I noted Fine art , guns , charter fee loss , crew replacement, + much more etc = all this stuff included as std which no doubt added to the premium but in reality I did not want so was over paying hence there quote £1500 .
Remember theses were silent over unattended @ anchor until I asked them , not the broker who passed me on .Astoundingly they came back with the good seamanship card at the top of there reasons for staying within line of sight and being able to return in30 mins .The policy sure had its equal mix of weasel words scattered for them to shape sort and pin it on .
Yes it did have “all risks “ + “ accidental damage “ too .

So in asked them why its not written in the policy and there reply was along the lines we can’t write every scenario and each case will be looked at individually …..I mean it would be easy just to say never leave it unattended as opposed to nothing .Then pin bad seamanship on a claim whereby it turns out it was left unattended.Poor sod like Pete thinks he covered and Chris H until he asked them .

My scenarios are written down and easy to comply with .

 

[Hooligan]

Seems like the argument goes round in circles. What I would say is as follows. If your policy says you can NOT leave the boat unattended then no room for debate. If it says what is in Porto’s policy then you are open to debate. Full stop. And when the loss adjuster comes around it will all be about him or her and what you did. If you arrived in such sheltered anchorage with a F 8 blowing into such sheltered anchorage, anchored and got off the boat (assuming you could in 3 m waves), then your sheltered anchorage is not going to cut the mustard. The word sheltered is an adjective that means “protected from bad weather”. So if you pull up happily in an anchorage on your chart but it doesn’t protect you from a Northerly and such northerly blows in and causes your boat to go on the rocks then I think this wording is going to give your insurer all the ammo in the world to argue that you were irresponsible, etc etc. The single most important thing is to establish two principles. First that the words can NOT leave the boat unattended are not in your document. Secondly that the words line of sight are also not in your document. After that it will become a matter of interpretation and your ability to show that you took all sensible precautions.

 

[Portofino]

Seems like the argument goes round in circles. What I would say is as follows. If your policy says you can NOT leave the boat unattended then no room for debate. If it says what is in Porto’s policy then you are open to debate. Full stop. And when the loss adjuster comes around it will all be about him or her and what you did. If you arrived in such sheltered anchorage with a F 8 blowing into such sheltered anchorage, anchored and got off the boat (assuming you could in 3 m waves), then your sheltered anchorage is not going to cut the mustard. The word sheltered is an adjective that means “protected from bad weather”. So if you pull up happily in an anchorage on your chart but it doesn’t protect you from a Northerly and such northerly blows in and causes your boat to go on the rocks then I think this wording is going to give your insurer all the ammo in the world to argue that you were irresponsible, etc etc. The single most important thing is to establish two principles. First that the words can NOT leave the boat unattended are not in your document. Secondly that the words line of sight are also not in your document. After that it will become a matter of interpretation and your ability to show that you took all sensible precautions.

Reiterating they don’t include every scenario in the clauses .
Just ask them , them not the eager commission salaried broker , no skip the monkey and go straight to the organ grinder( underwriters)
Sheltered means like in the pics below , what s all this F 8 anchoring in the full face stuff that’s creeped in ? That’s recklessness going ashore leaving it unattended in ALL policy’s. No ones disputing that .

Here this kinda conditions I am covered if they meet the written criteria in Craftinsure for leaving it unattended.

Ask your underwriters if you will be .Folly to assume .
Pants is silent in the wording ( Hooligans point ) but on further investigations they say you are not covered leaving it even in theses benign conditions my point - AGAIN .Ask them .




No F 8 s about . Nice beach side restaurants ashore . ^^^



The boat is left unattended and meets craftinsure criteria for cover .^^^ Thats our tender we went through the woods ( out of line of sight ) to forage for food and walk the dog .Ice cream to be exact .


Anchored ^ hear loads of times. It’s exposed and deep min 20 M on flat rock .Nothing for the anchor to dig into .Wind does indeed change from one side to the other after midday and rise.It’ fails in my view to fit the craftinsure criteria so someone ( me ) stays aboard it’s never left unattended because I fear it’s not covered .In fact know it’s ain’t .Wife+ guests tenders / paddle boards the dog in .

 

[Tony W]

Topsail new quote £4300 up from £2100!!

 

[Tony W]

Just wanted to throw this in regards insurance on “Anchor” ?? I only asked because of the helpful comments and variations of the Anchor debate, at first the broker said, it’s fine, you anchor, that’s boating, never heard of this being an issue?? They said they’d check with the underwriter, N&G and this is the response that came back. I now feel I shouldn’t have said anything!

Insurers have added an endorsement to the policy to allow you to anchor your craft

mp9b - Endorsement - Temporary Mooring and Marina:
You must not leave Your Boat afloat, unmanned, for more than 5 hours at a time during daylight hours, and at no time overnight, unless on a pontoon berth in a professionally run marina.

Suppose I have a whole load of other questions now, not to mention a twilight spot of supper???

 

[Portofino]

Just wanted to throw this in regards insurance on “Anchor” ?? I only asked because of the helpful comments and variations of the Anchor debate, at first the broker said, it’s fine, you anchor, that’s boating, never heard of this being an issue?? They said they’d check with the underwriter, N&G and this is the response that came back. I now feel I shouldn’t have said anything!

Insurers have added an endorsement to the policy to allow you to anchor your craft

mp9b - Endorsement - Temporary Mooring and Marina:
You must not leave Your Boat afloat, unmanned, for more than 5 hours at a time during daylight hours, and at no time overnight, unless on a pontoon berth in a professionally run marina.

Suppose I have a whole load of other questions now, not to mention a twilight spot of supper???

First para it’s not clear if you are talking “ anchor “ or referring to my unattended at anchor ….when your broker said “ never heard of an issue “
Remember you were talking to the monkey not the organ grinder .

When you spoke to underwriters ( the organ grinder ) .Now you have the boundaries.

At least they have given you 5 hrs shore leave I mean everybody off , Pity it’s only daylight though thinking evening meals etc .
After dark they want you on board at anchor .Presume to turn lights on etc .

So before you asked …pull up anchor in a place like this below .

5 pm mid July. “ who fancies an ice cream “
By 6 pm all have jumped into the tender and shot over to the pretty town .
A beer beckons ( Schhh ins Co will never know ) 7 pm just about to get up to go back , wife says fridge is full of this n that , that needs cooking .
As you stand up round the corner an old mate( + his family ) walk by .Another 1/2 hr gossiping.The 4 kids were at the same school , your wife knows his etc……some one blurts out “ how about a pizza guys “
Its getting dark now 8 pm .
All the restaurant s are busy , it’s takes 1-1/2 hr to get 8 served + more drinks , + more ice cream .
A good time is being had by all .

By 10 pm ( you have sobered up btw ) you and your family are going round in circles in the dark ( using phones as lights ) in your tender where you thought you anchored it .Boats gone .
Doesn’t matter if sunk or stolen it’s gone .
Go back to shore rock up at your mates hotel sort it all in the morning .

A quick call to Top sail in the morning .Warm words from the broker total loss etc etc .Email your time lines , broker relays this ins Co .Naturally you skip a few beers bit thinking you are smart .
What could possibly go wrong it’s “ ALL risks “ I haven’t done anything wrong I let out a zillion M of chain , locked up took the keys etc etc .
Italian plod and the waiter in the hotel tell you there has been a spate of boat thefts it’s a professional outfit nicking boats sending them to Albania . Italian plod gave you a CCTV dongle with your time lines on around the town .You studiously sent this to the loss adjuster as well wanting a quick resolution. It proof of your story .

What comes back is case for refute , not leaving unattended per se the “ bad seamanship “ card thingy the leaving it with no lights as darkness fell or not returning at twilight . Thieves would watch it first see no one on board no one coming back no lights on be they anchor or any others .
By 9 pm thought it’s been left over night worth boarding and burning time hot wiring it .

Obviously if they said you can’t leave it unattended under any circumstances ( Pants policy wording ) then you will not be in the pickle you have inadvertently ended up in .

Now with this endorsement you explain to said mate “ sorry we would love a pizza but for insurance reasons we have to return to the boat mate - call you in the morning “

Thieves go off and nick another .

 

[DavidJ]

Just wanted to throw this in regards insurance on “Anchor” ?? I only asked because of the helpful comments and variations of the Anchor debate, at first the broker said, it’s fine, you anchor, that’s boating, never heard of this being an issue?? They said they’d check with the underwriter, N&G and this is the response that came back. I now feel I shouldn’t have said anything!

Insurers have added an endorsement to the policy to allow you to anchor your craft

mp9b - Endorsement - Temporary Mooring and Marina:
You must not leave Your Boat afloat, unmanned, for more than 5 hours at a time during daylight hours, and at no time overnight, unless on a pontoon berth in a professionally run marina.

Suppose I have a whole load of other questions now, not to mention a twilight spot of supper???

Not quite clear is that with Topsail?
I‘m with Craftinsure because of their positive wording with “unattended at anchor” but your mp9b endorsement would work for me and would give me another insurer to get a quote from.
I‘ve fallen out of love with Craftinsure after 3 email queries have now gone unanswered.

 

[Tony W]

First para it’s not clear if you are talking “ anchor “ or referring to my unattended at anchor ….when your broker said “ never heard of an issue “
Remember you were talking to the monkey not the organ grinder .

When you spoke to underwriters ( the organ grinder ) .Now you have the boundaries.

At least they have given you 5 hrs shore leave I mean everybody off , Pity it’s only daylight though thinking evening meals etc .
After dark they want you on board at anchor .Presume to turn lights on etc .

So before you asked …pull up anchor in a place like this below .
View attachment 140219
5 pm mid July. “ who fancies an ice cream “
By 6 pm all have jumped into the tender and shot over to the pretty town .
A beer beckons ( Schhh ins Co will never know ) 7 pm just about to get up to go back , wife says fridge is full of this n that , that needs cooking .
As you stand up round the corner an old mate( + his family ) walk by .Another 1/2 hr gossiping.The 4 kids were at the same school , your wife knows his etc……some one blurts out “ how about a pizza guys “
Its getting dark now 8 pm .
All the restaurant s are busy , it’s takes 1-1/2 hr to get 8 served + more drinks , + more ice cream .
A good time is being had by all .

By 10 pm ( you have sobered up btw ) you and your family are going round in circles in the dark ( using phones as lights ) in your tender where you thought you anchored it .Boats gone .
Doesn’t matter if sunk or stolen it’s gone .
Go back to shore rock up at your mates hotel sort it all in the morning .

A quick call to Top sail in the morning .Warm words from the broker total loss etc etc .Email your time lines , broker relays this ins Co .Naturally you skip a few beers bit thinking you are smart .
What could possibly go wrong it’s “ ALL risks “ I haven’t done anything wrong I let out a zillion M of chain , locked up took the keys etc etc .
Italian plod and the waiter in the hotel tell you there has been a spate of boat thefts it’s a professional outfit nicking boats sending them to Albania . Italian plod gave you a CCTV dongle with your time lines on around the town .You studiously sent this to the loss adjuster as well wanting a quick resolution. It proof of your story .

What comes back is case for refute , not leaving unattended per se the “ bad seamanship “ card thingy the leaving it with no lights as darkness fell or not returning at twilight . Thieves would watch it first see no one on board no one coming back no lights on be they anchor or any others .
By 9 pm thought it’s been left over night worth boarding and burning time hot wiring it .

Obviously if they said you can’t leave it unattended under any circumstances ( Pants policy wording ) then you will not be in the pickle you have inadvertently ended up in .

Now with this endorsement you explain to said mate “ sorry we would love a pizza but for insurance reasons we have to return to the boat mate - call you in the morning “

Thieves go off and nick another .

unattended, I see what you‘re saying but that was clear when discussed with the broker, in fact he was quoting 24hours unattended but felt the need to check it out.

 

[Tony W]

Not quite clear is that with Topsail?
I‘m with Craftinsure because of their positive wording with “unattended at anchor” but your mp9b endorsement would work for me and would give me another insurer to get a quote from.
I‘ve fallen out of love with Craftinsure after 3 email queries have now gone unanswered.

Curtis… still discussing but by far the most energetic at getting things done so far.

 

[petem]

Just wanted to throw this in regards insurance on “Anchor” ?? I only asked because of the helpful comments and variations of the Anchor debate, at first the broker said, it’s fine, you anchor, that’s boating, never heard of this being an issue?? They said they’d check with the underwriter, N&G and this is the response that came back. I now feel I shouldn’t have said anything!

Insurers have added an endorsement to the policy to allow you to anchor your craft

mp9b - Endorsement - Temporary Mooring and Marina:
You must not leave Your Boat afloat, unmanned, for more than 5 hours at a time during daylight hours, and at no time overnight, unless on a pontoon berth in a professionally run marina.

Suppose I have a whole load of other questions now, not to mention a twilight spot of supper???

Congratulations for reducing your cover and not increasing it!

Let's hope you don't have an accident where you unintentionally have to leave your boat overnight at anchor.

 

[DavidJ]

Congratulations for reducing your cover and not increasing it!

Let's hope you don't have an accident where you unintentionally have to leave your boat overnight at anchor.

Must admit I prefer something specific than an “open to interpretation” clause even though the specific may reduce my options.
It’s just the way I am

 

[Portofino]

Must admit I prefer something specific than an “open to interpretation” clause even though the specific may reduce my options.
It’s just the way I am

Worse than that its more like “ I thought I was covered “ so did it .Something you can blurt out from the witness box to the court .
The court you are funding to get them to pay out .