Topsail Renewal

Hurricane said:
That wasn't what was said.
"On a big legitimate claim it will be down to negotiation" - whatever the wording says.
Yes, get the wording correct but in a big case @Hooligan said there will always be a negotiation.
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I disagree. On a total loss, for example, it will boil down to two things:

1) Am I covered?
2) How much for?

The first is binary, either you're covered or not and ultimately, you need terms and conditions that stand up in court.

The second is only open to negotiation if you have a policy that contains one of those clauses that cheaper insurance policies contain, e.g. instead of an agree value, the insurer reserves the right to replace the boat with one of a similar make and model. The Topsail policy, for example, is based on an agreed value. In the event of a total loss that's what you'll get.

If your boat gets damaged in a storm (i.e. not a total loss) then of course you're going to end up in a negotiation over what conditions the covers, upholstery, teak, etc were in. But even then, you really want new for old cover and nothing too onerous in terms of deductions for fair wear and tear. It's crazy to think that a loss adjuster won't be using the policy conditions if he thinks it they will support his argument to pay out as little as possible.
 
petem said:
I disagree. On a total loss, for example, it will boil down to two things:

1) Am I covered?
2) How much for?

The first is binary, either you're covered or not and ultimately, you need terms and conditions that stand up in court.

The second is only open to negotiation if you have a policy that contains one of those clauses that cheaper insurance policies contain, e.g. instead of an agree value, the insurer reserves the right to replace the boat with one of a similar make and model. The Topsail policy, for example, is based on an agreed value. In the event of a total loss that's what you'll get.

If your boat gets damaged in a storm (i.e. not a total loss) then of course you're going to end up in a negotiation over what conditions the covers, upholstery, teak, etc were in. But even then, you really want new for old cover and nothing too onerous in terms of deductions for fair wear and tear. It's crazy to think that a loss adjuster won't be using the policy conditions if he thinks it they will support his argument to pay out as little as possible.
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I am afraid I disagree on both points and can only point to my experience. First there is always ambiguity on the question am I covered or not. Sure you can have very specific exclusions but even then there are always circumstances. So it is not binary at all. Secondly there are all sorts of issues that go into your second point. In my case we ended up refitting the boat and ultimate the refit exceeded the insurance cover and the total cost was covered. by the insurer even though exceeded the policy amount. During the process many discussions were had along the old for new lines and even though the policy was relatively specific re this, there were many areas where I challenged and prevailed. Again the loss adjuster was a critical part of this. So I am afraid that contract or not it is just not as black and white as people seem to think. Of course one always wants to know the exact outcome for any scenario but I would argue that in trying to do this you ultimately hurt yourself. Ambiguity at times is your friend. A point I believe JFM made several times.
 
1) Am I covered?
2) How much for?

1 certainly is not “ binary “ what about seaworthiness. / seamanlike / recklessness and maintenance ?

Theses words or interpretation are loaded in favour of the ins Co .

As I said despite Amlins “ all risks “ they then circa 2015 /16 considered leaving a bost unattended @ anchor out of line of sight or far enough away whereby you were over 1/2 hrs time wise to return reckless and bad sea man ship .

A good seaman , un reckless owner would be able to return in a timely manor ( sat ashorewith his eye on the boat ) if the anchor was dragging and the boat bashing others as it moved through the crowded anchorage .
If a jet skier T boned it and it started to take on water ….then a good thoughtful seaman abiding by sensible eye sight line and timely return should be able to return to prevent a total sinking .Temp shoring up , running up the beach , going to nearby marina + slings etc .

Nothing mentioned in the then policy it’s silent on this .Sure one would think it drops “ binary “ into “ all risks “ Turns out it depends as Hooligan is saying .It’s not that clear cut and it’s foolish imho for anyone to hide behind the “ all risks “


Why not just ask them if any doubt .
I have never had a clam but I,am with Hooligan line of thought here .
Alarm bells for me are the wording or lack of wording in the policies.

Bit like seacocks .No ins Co defines make - you fit this brand or age - after ( insert years ) replace them .
They expect you to maintain them , service them , exercise them , replaced them and indeed if necessary have a surveyor report on them .
Some policy’s write up an exclusion of electrolysis , they won’t pay out if one goes .At least you know what you have bought ,where you stand .
Some they will pay out for the damage, flooding but not the €50 seacock . Wow big deal a seacock sinks a Pants insured €5 M boat and they pay out € 499950 .

Imho trying to figure out all this I have come to the conclusion the ins Co race to the bottom terminology and marketing, competing for business they ended up with “ all risks “ exclusion s and inclusions .Those three categories.

The exclusions and inclusions are black and white very quantifiable eg €500<vets fees or £250 single item watch .The berth is ( insert marina )
The rest that’s not written up drops into ” all risks “ and negotiable .

So anything not explicitly written up like the unattended at at anchor with N+G is up for negotiating like Amlins unattended at anchor claims .The ambiguity works against you if you went ashore disappeared for 4 hrs with 4 m of chain out in 3 m depth and your boat drifted through a crowded anchorage wrecking boats and itself .
Pete reckons “ all risks “ covers this .Hmm .
I would say they pay out the 3 P and not your damage.As they argue it’s un seaman like to leave it unattended for so long . Or worse still cock off the lot dropping the un seaman like card re 4 M chain out in 3 m depth .This means the 3 ps will be coming at you for repairs .
Wheres the “ all risks “ cover there then ? It’s evaporated.

” all risks “ is really negotiable .

It means if it’s not in the inclusions and not excluded it’s depends on the situation .By all means tells us about the claim , happy to listen but we will listen .Go away and see if we can plant un seamanship, recklessness on you or find something ( that we failed to define what’s acceptable like your seacock) that falls into our poor maintenance reason to refute .
We will tell you after the event we think you should have been in line of sight and able return within 1/2 hr when it sank unattended at anchor .Sorry it’s was reckless to that we refute .Recklessness is a exclusion.

Oh Yeh the less they print the greater there scope for a successful refute .
 
So I just did an online quote from craft insure and it was £300 more expensive than topsail , any recommendations cheers SS.
 
markc said:
I moved from Topsail to Curtis last year. I have just had the 1st renewal in from Curtis and it's £3.75 more than last year. :)
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That sounds promising - I hope our renewal from them is similar when it is due.
 
markc said:
I moved from Topsail to Curtis last year. I have just had the 1st renewal in from Curtis and it's £3.75 more than last year. :)
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I have just renewed mine from Curtis as well.
Without being asked, they gave me their best discount.
I'm not keen on brokers that don't give you the best price and wait for you to complain.
A broker should be YOUR representative - you shouldn't have to ask them to do their job.
Curtis has given me their best price at the outset!!
 
Just out of interest I have just had the 20y survey done for insurance purposes.
If you dig deeper into the T+C s of the major players policies they request a survey to be at hand once the vessel reaches 20/y .

Used a qualified Italian surveyor who normally does RINA stuff on all sorts of vessels .

The only thing he found was the lack of compass swing card .I’ve seen one , but lost it .

In Italy irrespective of the flag you need a in date swing card so I was informed.
Sometimes they do inspections and ask to see it .How ever nobody really uses the compass theses days so they do a light touch bolocking if you have a plotter / gps , I phone etc working .

For the sake of completeness crossing every t and dotting every i , I will get it done anyhow incase knowing my luck I end up against a “ jobsworth “ .

But all the important stuff in my view ( and potential refute ammo ) is ok , passed , in date Ie shaft seals , seacocks , pipes , cutlets bearings , steering gear , flaps , hydraulics , B thruster , engines , bilge pumps , windlass , electrical stuff , window integrity, storm gear etc etc .Along with all the safety gear , hull integrity.

Has anyone else had a insurance survey done ? Or bothered ?
 
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Portofino said:
Just out of interest I have just had the 20y survey done for insurance purposes.

But all the important stuff in my view ( and potential refute ammo ) is ok , passed , in date Ie shaft seals , seacocks , pipes , cutlets bearings , steering gear , flaps , hydraulics , B thruster , engines , bilge pumps , windlass , electrical stuff , window integrity, storm gear etc etc .Along with all the safety gear , hull integrity.

Has anyone else had a insurance survey done ? Or bothered ?
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Yes a 30yr one a couple of weeks ago. Sounds like yours did a good job, mine was........................ but I get a report to say I had had it checked and everything checked out AOK
 
Portofino said:
Just out of interest I have just had the 20y survey done for insurance purposes.
If you dig deeper into the T+C s of the major players policies they request a survey to be at hand once the vessel reaches 20/y .

Used a qualified Italian surveyor who normally does RINA stuff on all sorts of vessels .

The only thing he found was the lack of compass swing card .I’ve seen one , but lost it .

In Italy irrespective of the flag you need a in date swing card so I was informed.
Sometimes they do inspections and ask to see it .How ever nobody really uses the compass theses days so they do a light touch bolocking if you have a plotter / gps , I phone etc working .

For the sake of completeness crossing every t and dotting every i , I will get it done anyhow incase knowing my luck I end up against a “ jobsworth “ .

But all the important stuff in my view ( and potential refute ammo ) is ok , passed , in date Ie shaft seals , seacocks , pipes , cutlets bearings , steering gear , flaps , hydraulics , B thruster , engines , bilge pumps , windlass , electrical stuff , window integrity, storm gear etc etc .Along with all the safety gear , hull integrity.

Has anyone else had a insurance survey done ? Or bothered ?
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My insurance doesn't require one.
 
petem said:
My insurance doesn't require one.
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My Craftinsure policy says
if “Boat Name” is over 30 years old and over 23ft in length, you have in your possession a survey report not more
than five years old from a qualified surveyor, with all recommendations complied with.
 
petem said:
Sod that!
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What are you afraid of ?

Strange - place a telescope on the table and watch which end folks pick up and look down .:)

I see it like SAGA and car insurance they deliberately target low risk using age mostly and past ( good history) experience.
By excluding a 21 y old foot baller with a new 800 Hp Ferrari they can keep premiums down for the more mature , experienced drivers .

Boats ins .
By deliberately asking for a survey and insisting the owners carry out what’s deemed necessary if anything is flagged up they are excluding the higher risk diy bodgers , poorly maintained boats even by professionals, boats with out of date safety gear , aged seacocks, badly stowed tenders :) or what ever?

Thus decreasing there claims handling , overheads , payouts etc .Passing those savings back to the customers pretty much like SAGA excluding higher risk boy racers applying a age thingy .So on that basis I guess a lot of dross boats with similar higher risk profiles will seek insurance elsewhere.

Over and above this there’s gen piece of mind re seaworthiness, a 2nd pair of independent eyes from a professional .

Arn,t you curious if your boat stands up to scrutiny from a safety pov ?

Hate to be driving round on busy U.K. roads with potential a MOT failure on many levels unknowingly .

I don’t see any down sides only upsides same as SAGA motor insurance.
 
Portofino said:
What are you afraid of ?

Strange - place a telescope on the table and watch which end folks pick up and look down .:)

I see it like SAGA and car insurance they deliberately target low risk using age mostly and past ( good history) experience.
By excluding a 21 y old foot baller with a new 800 Hp Ferrari they can keep premiums down for the more mature , experienced drivers .

Boats ins .
By deliberately asking for a survey and insisting the owners carry out what’s deemed necessary if anything is flagged up they are excluding the higher risk diy bodgers , poorly maintained boats even by professionals, boats with out of date safety gear , aged seacocks, badly stowed tenders :) or what ever?

Thus decreasing there claims handling , overheads , payouts etc .Passing those savings back to the customers pretty much like SAGA excluding higher risk boy racers applying a age thingy .So on that basis I guess a lot of dross boats with similar higher risk profiles will seek insurance elsewhere.

Over and above this there’s gen piece of mind re seaworthiness, a 2nd pair of independent eyes from a professional .

Arn,t you curious if your boat stands up to scrutiny from a safety pov ?

Hate to be driving round on busy U.K. roads with potential a MOT failure on many levels unknowingly .

I don’t see any down sides only upsides same as SAGA motor insurance.
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I wondered if you'd bite!

It's not about telescopes, it's about imagination and critical thinking.

The problem with that condition is it doesn't restrict itself to material items. What happens if the surveyor says that the hulls has some osmosis blisters that he recommends repairing. Does the policyholder have to get those repaired before the insurance is valid? What about tired cockpit seating or covers that the surveyor recommends replacing?

As for Saga, who cares whether there other customers are old codgers? I'd rather shop on price and T&C's.
 
petem said:
It's not about telescopes, it's about imagination and critical thinking.

The problem with that condition is it doesn't restrict itself to material items. What happens if the surveyor says that the hulls has some osmosis blisters that he recommends repairing. Does the policyholder have to get those repaired before the insurance is valid? What about tired cockpit seating or covers that the surveyor recommends replacing?
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They use a traffic light system .
93EC8708-F96B-42E2-A22F-52BDA2E112B8.jpeg
Yes some items are not binary they are gradations like to use osmosis your example.Finding one osmosis bubble on a solid stray rail or 1000s and a silly high hull moisture content .I guess the surveyor will score the single bubble as “ green “ and the multiple bubbles as another colour ?
Same for the soft furnishings your “ tired cushions/ covers “I assume will be greens or even not within the scope .

No its the important stuff I listed in my post #70 penultimate para thats interesting .

I think you missed the point re SAGA they deliberately target low risk customers and because of the lower payouts generally can adjust premiums lower .Or turned around eliminate higher risk punters - does that sound better ? .Apologies if the analogy flew straight over your head ?
May be that’s why you said “ sod that “ ?

Thats what is happening with ins Co requesting timely surveys they are managing there risk cohort.

Then as I said curiosity, that nagging feeling about hull structural integrity or any thing else .Eg they look at the engine mounts , the belts the pulleys even when running for trueness ,Quite in depth I thought.

I got one green on a thirty page doc for lack of compass card .

I also got a written valuation confirming the number I gave on the policy FWIW so that decreases the underwriters wriggle room in the event of a full payout .

I had a conversation a few years ago ( along with the unattended @ anchor digging ) with Amlins about valuations.
I put it to them one can use internet ads ,to gauge the value , or indeed a broker.Made sense see what the same / similar are asking .Erh Nope came back !
”Thou shalt pay out the sum insured “ I said ……erh wrong again !

So what figure will you pay out ? I asked

The upshot was start with a proper insurance valuation by a surveyor…….we will accept that .It’s something independent written by a professional who knows ALL the technicalities about boats , the deeper still out of sight out of mind stuff which has a material effect on the value .

If you have any hidden defects lurking which subsequently come to light and end up fighting a claim and it’s ammo in the in’s Co s gun .

Or you could just bury your head in the sand and practice those swimming lessons more :) .

I accept an insurance survey is gonna split opinion.Unlike car MOT s it’s not mandatory and is another expense.So I get why folks try and push back on it .
 
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Portofino said:
They use a traffic light system .
View attachment 134062
Yes some items are not binary they are gradations like to use osmosis your example.Finding one osmosis bubble on a solid stray rail or 1000s and a silly high hull moisture content .I guess the surveyor will score the single bubble as “ green “ and the multiple bubbles as another colour ?
Same for the soft furnishings your “ tired cushions/ covers “I assume will be greens or even not within the scope .

No its the important stuff I listed in my post #70 penultimate para thats interesting .

I think you missed the point re SAGA they deliberately target low risk customers and because of the lower payouts generally can adjust premiums lower .Or turned around eliminate higher risk punters - does that sound better ? .Apologies if the analogy flew straight over your head ?
May be that’s why you said “ sod that “ ?

Thats what is happening with ins Co requesting timely surveys they are managing there risk cohort.

Then as I said curiosity, that nagging feeling about hull structural integrity or any thing else .Eg they look at the engine mounts , the belts the pulleys even when running for trueness ,Quite in depth I thought.

I got one green on a thirty page doc for lack of compass card .

I also got a written valuation confirming the number I gave on the policy FWIW so that decreases the underwriters wriggle room in the event of a full payout .

I had a conversation a few years ago ( along with the unattended @ anchor digging ) with Amlins about valuations.
I put it to them one can use internet ads ,to gauge the value , or indeed a broker.Made sense see what the same / similar are asking .Erh Nope came back !
”Thou shalt pay out the sum insured “ I said ……erh wrong again !

So what figure will you pay out ? I asked

The upshot was start with a proper insurance valuation by a surveyor…….we will accept that .It’s something independent written by a professional who knows ALL the technicalities about boats , the deeper still out of sight out of mind stuff which has a material effect on the value .

If you have any hidden defects lurking which subsequently come to light and end up fighting a claim and it’s ammo in the in’s Co s gun .

Or you could just bury your head in the sand and practice those swimming lessons more :) .

I accept an insurance survey is gonna split opinion.Unlike car MOT s it’s not mandatory and is another expense.So I get why folks try and push back on it .
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It’ll be an interesting experience watching the compass being swung. Like piano-tuning, a black art not accessible to mere mortals.
 
Portofino said:
They use a traffic light system .
View attachment 134062
Yes some items are not binary they are gradations like to use osmosis your example.Finding one osmosis bubble on a solid stray rail or 1000s and a silly high hull moisture content .I guess the surveyor will score the single bubble as “ green “ and the multiple bubbles as another colour ?
Same for the soft furnishings your “ tired cushions/ covers “I assume will be greens or even not within the scope .

No its the important stuff I listed in my post #70 penultimate para thats interesting .

I think you missed the point re SAGA they deliberately target low risk customers and because of the lower payouts generally can adjust premiums lower .Or turned around eliminate higher risk punters - does that sound better ? .Apologies if the analogy flew straight over your head ?
May be that’s why you said “ sod that “ ?

Thats what is happening with ins Co requesting timely surveys they are managing there risk cohort.

Then as I said curiosity, that nagging feeling about hull structural integrity or any thing else .Eg they look at the engine mounts , the belts the pulleys even when running for trueness ,Quite in depth I thought.

I got one green on a thirty page doc for lack of compass card .

I also got a written valuation confirming the number I gave on the policy FWIW so that decreases the underwriters wriggle room in the event of a full payout .

I had a conversation a few years ago ( along with the unattended @ anchor digging ) with Amlins about valuations.
I put it to them one can use internet ads ,to gauge the value , or indeed a broker.Made sense see what the same / similar are asking .Erh Nope came back !
”Thou shalt pay out the sum insured “ I said ……erh wrong again !

So what figure will you pay out ? I asked

The upshot was start with a proper insurance valuation by a surveyor…….we will accept that .It’s something independent written by a professional who knows ALL the technicalities about boats , the deeper still out of sight out of mind stuff which has a material effect on the value .

If you have any hidden defects lurking which subsequently come to light and end up fighting a claim and it’s ammo in the in’s Co s gun .

Or you could just bury your head in the sand and practice those swimming lessons more :) .

I accept an insurance survey is gonna split opinion.Unlike car MOT s it’s not mandatory and is another expense.So I get why folks try and push back on it .
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You missed the word "all"...

"My Craftinsure policy says
if “Boat Name” is over 30 years old and over 23ft in length, you have in your possession a survey report not more
than five years old from a qualified surveyor, with all recommendations complied with."

It doesn't say you only need to fix Red or Amber items.
 
benjenbav said:
It’ll be an interesting experience watching the compass being swung. Like piano-tuning, a black art not accessible to mere mortals.
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I am gonna go along with it because primarily he told me the IT officialdom can get ratty if they find it’s not done .
As said he said nowadays with various GPS devices they take a light touch anyhow .

Yes interesting to see and find out what an “ official compass adjuster “ actually does .
From memory it’s pretty accurate anyhow when I have crossed referenced it out to sea ( no land in sight ) with the various GPS devices .But that’s not the point I have lost the card so need another.

I am not a electrotwackery gadget man anyhow .Spent my youth yomping access gawd forsaken foggy moors with map + compass .
petem said:
You missed the word "all"...

"My Craftinsure policy says
if “Boat Name” is over 30 years old and over 23ft in length, you have in your possession a survey report not more
than five years old from a qualified surveyor, with all recommendations complied with."

It doesn't say you only need to fix Red or Amber items.
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So what big deal .

But wouldn’t you want your yard to fix the one osmosis bubble ( using that hypothetical eg ) anyhow rather than just paint AF over it ?

Are you not curious of the present state of your boat ?
 
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