toilets losing water

[BSJ2]

tried a search but nothing found. we have two toilets ,both electric freshwater flush. both lose their water from the bowl when left for short period of time. seems worse when under way particularly if rough.heads stink then off course!!boat only two years old. jabsco toilets. i thought perhaps there must be some sort of anti -syphon thingy somewhere but where do you look?any ideas. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[VicS]

Can you describe the installation in more detail.

Above or below the water line? Discharge to holding tank or overboard? If overboard is the seacock always closed?

Position relative to freshwater supply*?

Are there loops in the pipework and are there any antisyphon valves in the highst points in the pipework?

Has this always happened or is this recent?

* No it can't possibly go back to the freshwater tank can it.

 

[HeadMistress]

Most marine toilets aren't supposed to hold water...it ends up all over the head in rough seas. You CAN make one hold water by installing a vented loop immediately after the toilet that's high enough to allow water to run back downhill into the bowl from it and removing the joker valve. There are a few very high end electric "thrones" that have internal vented loops for this purpose, but Jabsco doesn't make one. So unless yours was installed with the vented loop in the discharge, it's doing what it's designed to do.

However, if the bowls held water previously, it's likely that the joker valve was still sealing tightly enough to allow only very slow seepage...slow enough that the toilet was used often enough to replace the water before it all seeped out. After 2 years, the joker valve has had enough use to stretch the slit enough to allow the water to drain more quickly. So replacing it may solve what you consider to be a problem. Joker valves should be replaced at least every two years, preferably annually, anyway.

 

[BSJ2]

vics. goes to holding tank. toilet above water line. and cannot syphon back to freshwater as the clean water enters at top of pan,discharges from bottom. 9 inches apart?
hm...where and what does a joker valve live and do/look like. can i buy one off the shelve.
as this problem has only just started ,made worse in rough weather.presumably when water sloshing about in pan?(clean water that is )

 

[HeadMistress]

[ QUOTE ]
hm...where and what does a joker valve live and do/look like. can i buy one off the shelve.
as this problem has only just started ,made worse in rough weather.presumably when water sloshing about in pan?(clean water that is )

[/ QUOTE ]

The joker valve is in the toilet discharge fitting. You can locate it in the exploded drawing parts list in the instructions for your toilet...which, along with all the instructions for ALL the equipment for your boat, should have been furnished by your dealer. If you didn't keep them, you now know why you should have. You can recover the instructions for your toilet here: http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfoApp/servlet/ListTypes?categoryId=JMTOI&catalogId=Marine

"vics. goes to holding tank. toilet above water line. and cannot syphon back to freshwater as the clean water enters at top of pan,discharges from bottom. 9 inches apart?"

A loop in the toilet discharge line has nothing to do with the incoming flush water...nor are there any "pans" in a marine toilet, so there can't be any water sloshing around in one.

I think you really DO need to read the instructions for your toilet and study the illustrations in 'em! 'Cuz your comment makes it obvious you don't have any idea how your toilet works, what a joker valve is, or the function of a vented loop in the toilet discharge line.

What are "vics?"

 

[Rick]

Peggie - VicS is a contributor here on the list who posted a response before you did.

 

[thalassa]

I would fully agree in replacing the joker valve every two years. However, the last examples I took from the refurbishing kits where of poor manufacturing quality, as the flaps where 1 mm -and even more near the edges- open. And sure enough, seepage was greater than when the old one was in place...

 

[Guest]

Don't worry about the pedantic use of terms, loos are simple.

Firstly a pan and a bowl are the same thing to most people. Cambridge dictionary:

pan (TOILET)
noun [C] UK
the bowl-shaped part of a toilet

Secondly the joker valve is just a non return valve. As previously said, they do seem to be getting worse in their manufacture. It is an essential part of a pump system that stops water returning to the loo bowl. If I understand correctly that is not your problem.

But back to the problem. The water that used to stay in the base of the bowl/pan now is disappearing.

If the outlet pipe from the base of the loo goes up hill before it heads for the holding tank then unless you tip your boat over too much it is very hard for water to go up hill. If it does go continuous down hill to the holding tank then there is very little you can do about making sure a little water stays in the bowl. Any one way valve will let water through in its intended direction.

If not the above then it is either being pushed, pulled or leaking. Leaking is easy, the floor gets wet. Can be from the base to bowl joint.
If it is not leaking and does not have a sealing lid and the compartment is vented then the water can not be pushed out due to pressure build up in the loo bowl or heads compartment.

Finally it could be being pulled out by a low pressure on the holding tank side. This can be caused by horizontal pipework that does not drain along with the motion of the boat. As the slug of water moves backwards and forwards in the full pipe is creates a pumping affect that slowly extracts all the water from the bowl. The non return valve in this case is working fine and taking part in the pumping action.
If it is none of these then look at the vent system of the holding tank. Make sure it is not partially blocked. Boat movement and a tank with flexible walls or incorrect baffles can cause a pumping effect as well.

If your problem is that the bowl empties when you want a little to be left in there (personal preference) then the non return valve is probably OK. What you need to look for is: sagging horizontal pipes, blocked holding tank vents or pipe work that goes straight down hill.

One more; the boat motion with the sea cock open along with a vent on the holding tank that is too small will cause a pumping action to occur.

 

[BSJ2]

solarneil... that all makes sense. gues what i am off to do now.....yippee /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
VicS is a contributor

[/ QUOTE ] I'm glad you clarified that. I would hate to think that some poor soul may have stripped the heads down looking for the "vics valve"

Come to think of it what is needed on segrue's installation are in fact vics valves to prevent all the water draining to the holding tank and maintain a small amount in the bottom of the bowl, aka the pan, to prevent smells coming back from the tank.

Off to the drawing board. I will publish the design when complete.

 

[HeadMistress]

[ QUOTE ]
Peggie - VicS is a contributor here on the list who posted a response before you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha...a "who," not a "what." Thank you!

And as for "pan"...I'd never heard the bowl called that before. However, it became obvious to me the first first time I logged on here that I'd have to learn a second language--English! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Vic, it's not valves that are needed, just a section of vertical pipe up to a loop. Electric macerating toilets that have integral intake pumps don't have a "dry" mode...the same motore that powers the macerator and discharge pump simulanteously powers the intake impeller--which has to continue to pull in water, or the impeller would "fry" from dry friction heat. And--although there's no intake impeller--most toilets that use onboard pressurized flush water also bring in flush water the whole time the flush button is held down. So there's always flush water (or waste if you don't leave your finger on the button long enough to move the bowl contents over the top of the loop). When the pump stops pushing, that water will run back downhill into the bowl....er, pan. Remove the joker valve, and the pan will refill immediately. The height of loop above the toilet--the length of piping to it--determines the amount of water.

This arrangement is indeed very simple, and very popular here among houseboat owners on flat inland waters who want everything aboard to be as close to its domestic counterpart as possible, which includes a toilet that holds water "like the one at home." Raritan even incorporated the ability to specify an an optional internal vented loop in their Atlantes toilets (all china household style "thrones") specifically for that market.

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
Vic, it's not valves that are needed

[/ QUOTE ] Yes I know. My suggestion to design vics valves was a jest! I was going to wait a bit and then publish a design for a loop. I was going to call it a "vics loop" but you have beaten me to it so it will now be called a "headmistress loop"

 

[ColinHuggins]

Re: toilets NOT losing water

My problem is the slow filling of the bowl/pan under way with seacocks open and WC in 'dry bowl' position. Advice please.
(Oh dear, am I going off at a tangent? Sorry!)

 

[VicS]

Re: toilets NOT losing water

The answer has to be, "Close the seacocks". Having said that I have to admit that the boat I have crewed on regularly has not had the seacocks closed for nearly 30 years (They wont now of course) It does have a Lavac toilet installed with the correct antisyphon loops and air bleed in the inlet pipe.

You may need to fit vented loops if not already fitted, or if the loops are simply not practicable fit/renew the joker valve in the outlet pipe. Assuming the water is coming in via the outlet that is. Maybe it is just the antisyphon valve that needs cleaning.

What type of toilet is it and how is it installed?
I think you will find that the object of the "dry bowl" setting is to enable you to pump out the bowl/pan without more flushing water being pumped in. It is not intended as a means of preventing water coming in in the circumstances you describe.

 

[ColinHuggins]

Re: toilets NOT losing water

Thanks, typical 'collision midships' interruption to the thread. Mine's also a Jabsco, no holding tank, fitted just above waterline so only one loop needed and that's in the outlet pipe. Looks like there's a joker in the pack but past its shelf-life. Agreed?

 

[HeadMistress]

Re: toilets NOT losing water

Definitely call it a "vics valve"...it sounds SO "saltier" than "headmistr4ess valve." /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chuggin, if you're taking on water in the dry mode, the wet/dry valve--which isn't a valve, but just a little "gate" (jabsco calls it a cam assembly)--is leaking. Which is a good illustration of why relying on the wet/dry valve to keep your boat afloat when no one is aboard instead of closing the seacocks is not smart.

You also need a vented loop in the intake...to provide a failsafe in case the toilet is left in the wet mode or the wet/dry valve leaks. It goes between the pump and the bowl, to replace the short piece of hose the mfr uses to connect 'em, and should be 6-8" above the waterline at any angle of heel.