To Pan or not to Pan?

We gave a yacht a tow a little while ago, he called "any vessels" on Ch 16 and gave where he was and where he wanted to go.
We took him home and hope others would do the same for us.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My observation is that many, if not most, boats are used rarely. So for many owners the once or twice a year sail is for going somewhere - time for practise and gaining different experiences is time "wasted".

It is even worse for the little mobo with the family aboard out for a blast in the summer - it probably doesn't have an anchor aboard anyway, judging by all the panic calls on vhf in the summer.

[/ QUOTE ] Sadly this is as coherent a case for compulsory certification as I have yet come across on these fora /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

- W
 
I have often checked that windlass is switched on and I can easily let go of the anchor BUT have never checked whether I could get it back up without the windlass.

Manual says have engine on charging batteries BEFORE using windlass.

After a couple of occasions diving for anchors I did a PADDI course.

When we were relatively inexperienced and crossing from Cherbourg to UK under motor we got to the edge of where all the ships are in an East going stream (not in a shipping lane but between them). Its just about sunset no wind and suddenly the engine labours and black smoke from exhaust and max speed drops to 1-2kt. I suspected a rope around the prop.

What would you do? Go back towards France? Try to motor across shipping stream at 1-2kts and hope the wind gets up. Dive without a buddy mid channel to check prop?

I switched off engine put on diving gear, roped myself to the boat and cut away a fishing net (took about 1hr in total) but after thought I should have informed CG of my position and intentions and informed them again once all OK and underway. Is that a channel 16 call or a SECURITE or a PAN PAN call?

Out of curiosity what would others do?
 
I'd have called on Ch16, and explained situation on 67. I would be happy to let the CG put out a Securite, because I reckon it would reach more vessels, and they would be more likely to pay attention to it.

I would also have been insistent that I did NOT need outside assistance.

Assuming you are within vhf range of the shore of course, and your judgement is that you can manage the risk of going over the side /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Hmm - don't have diving gear - well no tank - got the mask, flippers & knife!!
Depends on how "on the edge of the traffic" you were and where the tide was taking you... also how dense the traffic was. East Bound is on the south side of "the channel" - so is this in the frenchies control?
It would also depend on who was on board ...

my first action would be to detail someone to get the inflatable out and pumped up, with the outboard (2hp) on the back this should pull us (only 3.5t) at a crawl ... and probably (dependant on the tide) head back south ...
 
This is nature's way of telling you to learn to sail! It happened to me on my first sail on my last boat. It was a calm evening and I was accompanied only by my two children, aged 8 and ten, neither of whom could do anything but steer. The engine cut out as we were heading out, about 3/4 miles from the marina (due to diesel sludge as it happens.) I had no radio (this was in 1965) and am too mean and embarrassed to use flares. I hoisted (no roller furler) the genoa and sailed back in at two knots with that, lowering it as we turned into the berth. It was one of the most uneventful berthings I ever made in that boat, picking up the stern line as we passed and stopping gently in the correct position.
 
.. and this is one of the posts which helps clarify what is a pan pan situation, and it explores other options available, for people who are in a 'first time difficult situation moment'
Perhaps my enthusiasm for such a good thread didnt come across very well,
I consider myself to be a fairly inexperienced sailor, despite having a dazed kipper, and about to take YM practical in a few weeks time, I sail single handed, and on the particular day that I grounded had already sailed on to a pontoon, and later picked up a mooring to wait for the weather to improve, all single handed,
Along with you, I thoroughly support the idea that sailors should get extra training in specific areas.
 
A few years ago I helped sail a boat back on to a mooring onto the Hamble after we got a rope stuck round the prop. C onditions were ideal though, a light northerly, at high tide,(so tide stream was neglible ) and we had a big crew. It was a Sigma 362 and a school boat and we backed and filled the main and ran the jib up and down to control the speed. Our landing was inch perfect. It can be done with a good fit crew if weather conditions allow.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It can be done with a good fit crew if weather conditions allow.

[/ QUOTE ] - and it can be done singlehanded or two-handed in most weather conditions by ordinary people . . . I don't see where fitness comes into it really. Sailing onto a mooring is the easiest option of all in the event of a sudden lack of engine. I can usually get newcomers to sailing doing it in an hour in reasonable conditions.
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is nature's way of telling you to learn to sail! It happened to me on my first sail on my last boat. It was a calm evening and I was accompanied only by my two children, aged 8 and ten, neither of whom could do anything but steer. The engine cut out as we were heading out, about 3/4 miles from the marina (due to diesel sludge as it happens.) I had no radio (this was in 1965) and am too mean and embarrassed to use flares. I hoisted (no roller furler) the genoa and sailed back in at two knots with that, lowering it as we turned into the berth. It was one of the most uneventful berthings I ever made in that boat, picking up the stern line as we passed and stopping gently in the correct position.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am to understand you, you think everyone should be able to sail onto their mooring, or, they can't sail.

I defy you to sail onto my mooring, it is in a very sheltered from wind area with currents up to and often exceeding 4knts. These currents are often messy, the strongest are not tidal but those running off the mountains when it rains, these hit the tidal current just behind the rudders of my boat on her mooring.

The river is narrow, even when the tide is flooding the current on the surface can be ebbing. The harbour authority recently added a whole new row of trot moorings, even under engine navigating a wider craft can be a bit of fun.. In fact I have had both engines screaming in the past to squeeze through the gaps, they shrink when the tides get bigger, not physically but the real room as you crab through.

The easiest solution will be to suggest I shouldn't use a mooring that I can't sail onto, yes I agree, but, all the decent mooring areas are being removed to build marinas.. What can you do?

I think you attitude is outdated, the harbours are not the nice sparse places you remember from 1965.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
"If I am to understand you, you think everyone should be able to sail onto their mooring, or, they can't sail."

Err - not exactly, in fact I would never advise anyone voluntarily to sail into a marina berth, nor into certain others. In fact, certain harbours forbid it. Tarbert harbourmaster is not exactly keen on people trying to sail in (neither were Kip Marina), but it is done in emergency, for the sort of reason I have described.

By the way, I had a typo in the original post. It was 1985, not 1965, and Kip marina had been built by that time. In 1965, the ex-six meter that I sailed then did not have an engine at all. This was not uncommon in those days. How did people cope in your location then, or did no-one sail without an engine? I bought and fitted a Seagull 102 longshaft the day after I got becalmed at Sandbank (Holy Loch) and had to tow the brute from the tender four miles to my mooring at Gourock. Canal work with the Seagull (no reverse and side-mounted) was a lot of fun.
 
There is a big difference between what you can safely do in a nifty 27 footer and what you can do in a heavy cruising blue water yacht crewed by husband and wife only. I used to do lots of things with the Centaur that I wouldn't dream of doing in the Nauticat because the Nauticat is not as manoeuvrable and - more importantly - the consequences of getting it wrong and letting 20 tonnes of yacht drift back at several knots with the current onto other vessels is unacceptably great. You can stick your foot out or put a fender out on a 27 footer!

I detect a bit of sailing snobbery here and don't understand the reason. People don't need to be made to feel bad about themselves or their ability simply because they choose not to try to manoeuvre their yachts in close quarters under sail. It is totally unnecessary. What they do need is to be able to heave to, anchor, and call for a tow when the engine fails which, if it is properly maintained, it probably will not.
 
Re my experience mentioned above...

I agonised for over an hour before putting in a call. the CG and RNLI both said that they prefer towing in whole boats with uninjured crews than picking up the pieces from bigger accidents. They then point out that most bigger accidents start off as small situations and spiral downwards. With wife, 2 kids on board and in the Harwich shipping lanes I can see now that it was the sensible thing to do but I felt a complete wimp for weeks afterwards

Simon
 
[ QUOTE ]
Re my experience mentioned above...

I agonised for over an hour before putting in a call. the CG and RNLI both said that they prefer towing in whole boats with uninjured crews than picking up the pieces from bigger accidents. They then point out that most bigger accidents start off as small situations and spiral downwards. With wife, 2 kids on board and in the Harwich shipping lanes I can see now that it was the sensible thing to do but I felt a complete wimp for weeks afterwards

Simon

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I think only the skipper can make the decision at the time..
 
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People don't need to be made to feel bad about themselves or their ability simply because they choose not to try to manoeuvre their yachts in close quarters under sail. It is totally unnecessary.

[/ QUOTE ] I am not sure if I disagree with you or not as I am not sure what you are saying.

It is totally unnecessary to make people feel bad, sure - and if I have I apologise.

And it is a fact that nearly all of us choose not to manoevre our yachts under sail in close quarters most of the time - we use our auxiliary engine. I only do it when the engien fails or for practice (an a bit of fun sometimes - it can be quite rewarding).

However, I am of the opinion that it is very necessary to be able to maneovre your sailing vessel under sail when the need arises. You need to be able to bring it to a place of safety - but this need not be your original destination.

Size obviously brings its problems, but then light boats don't carry their way as well and the bow is easily blown off - it is a question of knowing your boat, and saying everything is easier in a 27 footer is an oversimplification.

If you think that learning to maneovre your vessel under sail alone in case it becomes necessary is not a worthwhile aim then essentially you are driving a motor boat with unreliable auxiliary sails - and if that is snobbery then I guess I am a snob. I prefer to think it is about being able to look after yourself at sea and not depending on others to come to your aid the minute it gets a little bit difficult or uncomfortable. This, I think, also fairly reflects the arttitude of the RYA.

As I said on another post, if people cannot be bothered learning basic seamanship or don't have the time then we are surely heading for licensing of some sort.

As for heaving to or anchoring - sure. Everyone agrees that sailing into marinas is to be avoided and a tow is preferable. Some moorings are very hard to pick up under sail - yes. So we sail our vessel as close as practical then we anchor, heave to or pick up an easy mooring. So why would we EVER call a Pan Pan if the only problem is that the engine won't start?

Re. DogWatch - I certainly did not mean anyone should necessarily be able to sail onto their own mooring - I said a mooring. Sailing a HT onto a mooring in a confined space in a windshadow with 4kt tide is probably never going to happen on a reliable basis, for sure - but you probably know other moorings around your sailing area that you could perhaps pick up if you needed to fix an engine or phone a friend for a tow, and you could probably anchor under sail as well for that matter.

I know you wouldn't put out a Pan Pan for an engine failure unless you were in fairly immediate danger, so I suspect you are playing devils' advocate here . . . /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


- W
 
[ QUOTE ]
I detect a bit of sailing snobbery here and don't understand the reason. People don't need to be made to feel bad about themselves or their ability simply because they choose not to try to manoeuvre their yachts in close quarters under sail.

[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't read that - there is a huge diversity of places to park your boat from Dogs windless, swirling current location to my open mooring with nearly 360 degree access - then you get the marina berths. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you must be able to sail to your berth - what is suggested is that engine failure on a yacht is not generally a major problem, with no other problems, you should be capable of sailing your vessel to a suitable safe(ish) location to enable you to either moor up, anchor or get a local tow.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Re. DogWatch - I certainly did not mean anyone should necessarily be able to sail onto their own mooring - I said a mooring. Sailing a HT onto a mooring in a confined space in a windshadow with 4kt tide is probably never going to happen on a reliable basis, for sure - but you probably know other moorings around your sailing area that you could perhaps pick up if you needed to fix an engine or phone a friend for a tow, and you could probably anchor under sail as well for that matter.

I know you wouldn't put out a Pan Pan for an engine failure unless you were in fairly immediate danger, so I suspect you are playing devils' advocate here . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, when I used to sail from my old home town (hoylake) we never used engines, it did not seem necessary. My point is that many things have changed, estuaries are now littered with packed in moorings such as trots and piles.

I would not have called for help, but see my above post, only a skipper can decide where his options lie. I am not suggesting for one instance that I agree with some decisions, but I do sort of understand.

I am lucky to have come from a commercial fishing background, with many happy months as a kid sailing a variety of dinghies and small yachts. Many of today's sailors are from landlocked areas who have chosen a lifestyle change when they are older, this is not their fault, it is the luck of the draw.

I do think it is experience that allows you to think about 6 moves ahead rather than standing with a scared family wondering how you should get out of this one.

For many, the sea is a new thing, the RNLI is misunderstood in it's role, just read the forums and see the attitude that the RNLI and CG exist to look after leisure sailors. There are many people who have never used an anchor, as many have never picked up a mooring at all. On mobo this week there is a chat about tenders just being unnecessary toys (beggers belief). Newbies have been spoilt with marinas, sea start, epirb, VHF at an affordable price for all, reliable engines, fuel pontoons (how many have carried fuel in jerry cans in the dinghy.. ).

I am not even an old bloke who had to build my own craft as many did, but old enough to remember sailing before this infrastructure. Self reliance does it appear, seem to be long forgotten.

I don't agree with certification though, just look at the USA, their coastguard have powers that petrify me, they can order you off your boat, or threaten your skippers ticket if you do not comply.. No way would I like to follow that route.

OTOH. There is also a thread in mobo where a skipper is struggling to get alongside the pontoon, it is being filmed from a saloon of a boat, the camera op is guffawing at the struggle the skipper is having getting alongside. If we all begin to peep through the curtains and mock less experienced boaters, what chance do they have to learn. I am no angel in this by the way!

I have been asked some questions which have taken me aback, often when we are launching our tender from the slipway.. people launching their new mobo on the trailer, stuff like how do we get out of the harbour. I could have had the attitude of ranting, but it would have achieved nothing. So I grit teeth and try to get as much info in to the short time as possible to allow these people to be safe for the day. I am wondering if I have lost the point here.....
 
And another thing!

Seriously, there is another option that hasn't been mentioned.

Where the current is strong, you can drudge. Lower the anchor on a short scope (ideally using the tripping line to prevent permanent snagging) This will allow you to drift on the current at your chosen speed & using the current to provide steerage way. It will probably need 2 people, unless you can feed the line back to the cockpit, as the line length needs to vary with the depth for best control. But you can only travel in the same direction as the tide, of course.

Don't be daft trying to get into tiny congetsed marinas/ moorings etc. Just get yourself somewhere safe. Wherever possible INFORM the harbour master or CG as relevant, they will often help if they can. I have done a few passages with no engine available & sailed onto moorings or into docks, but you need to know your boat and have reasonable conditions.

IIRC, Mayday is for when life is endangered, Pan Pan is for serious risk to the vessel, or for medical support & Securite is for navigational warnings etc. Personally, if there was a doubt, I would tend to use the lower level, it can always be upgraded if necessary. Keeping the coastguard informed is not only sensible & polite, but also means that you have someone to discuss your problem with who has a clear mind and fresh ideas. That is a powerful combination and you should find it helps you to relax & think clearer.
 
( don`t take offence searush )
has anyone on here looked at the link to yacht forum ?
capt`n bob must be going for poster of the month.
he must also be laughing all the way too /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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I can see now that it was the sensible thing to do

[/ QUOTE ]

It would seem that you were absolutely right in your decision at the time. 'No-one got hurt' was the consequence of your sound decision. It's normal - if uncomfortable - to beat oneself up by revisiting a safety decision and what led to it. There's a lot which can be learned from such revisiting - as a learning aid!

Safety decisions *must* be made with what you have, and what you don't have, at the time - that includes the spare anchor left at home, the detailed chart of a tricky harbour approaches you didn't buy, an acknowledged lack of experience in some aspects of boat-handling, a shortage of reliable and competent crew.... there will always be know-how and stuff you wished you'd had on the day - but didn't. So you work with what you've got, and can get by asking e.g. a harbourmaster, a passing yacht, HMCG....

The important thing - the *only* important thing - is to make and implement the decision that leaves your people safe. A bruised ego heals....

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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