Titan Lithium Gold drop in batteries...

[RobbieW]

...does anyone have experience of using these in practice ? Specifically this one, Lithium Leisure Battery - TITAN Lithium Gold 12V 460Ah Battery. On behalf of a friend, I'm looking at options to improve the usable capacity of a bank of 4 x 70Ah gel Sonnenschein batteries. The driver is to enable long stays on board with less dependence on shore power to charge them. There another 70A engine battery of the same type, I'm still getting to know the boat so there may be other batteries for the bow & stern thrusters.

Currently charging is either from a 115A alternator or shore power. The addition of a Victron 50A BtoB charger would seem to allow the charging of a drop in lithium with minimal other changes, though clearly some wiring will need to be done. Solar may be added over time.

 

[fredrussell]

The general consensus on this forum seems to be that there is no such thing as a ‘drop in’ lithium battery on boats. Others with far more expertise than me will be along soon to explain why, but, generally, as well as a suitable charging method you need systems in place to fall back on in the (unlikely) event of the BMS switching lithium house bank off.

 

[Lucy52]

They make remarkable claims about being a drop-in replacement. They are fitted with a comms port, can be connected in parallel, and compatible with industry standards.

Useful FAQ's:

Lithium Battery FAQ

They include Video explanations.

For example:

Myth Busting: Charging lithium via alternators

"DC to DC chargers are preferred by us as they give a proper charge profile that makes for efficient charging, but split charge relays are the next best thing and can still be used with our lithium batteries."

Interesting batteries, and could take some of the arcane magic surrounding lithium battery installation, and maybe cheaper than a proprietary system.

 

[Tranona]

...does anyone have experience of using these in practice ? Specifically this one, Lithium Leisure Battery - TITAN Lithium Gold 12V 460Ah Battery. On behalf of a friend, I'm looking at options to improve the usable capacity of a bank of 4 x 70Ah gel Sonnenschein batteries. The driver is to enable long stays on board with less dependence on shore power to charge them. There another 70A engine battery of the same type, I'm still getting to know the boat so there may be other batteries for the bow & stern thrusters.

Currently charging is either from a 115A alternator or shore power. The addition of a Victron 50A BtoB charger would seem to allow the charging of a drop in lithium with minimal other changes, though clearly some wiring will need to be done. Solar may be added over time.

As ever more information required. What sort of boat is it? 270Ah is not a big bank for a boat that might have a bow and stern thruster. what are the usage expectations and cruising pattern? If it is a sailing boat then the usual issue is the lack of charging capacity to replace usage while at anchor or sailing, rather than battery capacity so adding solar that even in the UK will go a long way toward keeping up with consumption. Moving from LA to lithium does need investment in either a regulator for the alternator or a DC/DC charger to control the charge. On the other hand the batteries can take any amount of charge from solar.

The usual starting point in upgrading a system is to go back to basics and do a consumption and charging audit to identify the size of buffer needed to cater for the shortfall then look at means of increasing charge rate. For many boats with modest consumption the solution is just increasing the current LA and adding solar. However there may be space constraints and lithium might be a way of overcoming that or one might want to take advantages of the properties of lithium and consider using more electricity for example cooking by electric.

As to that particular battery it seems very expensive for the capacity as well as being large. Choosing which battery is the end point, not the start. Determine what is needed first and then look at the best product(s) to meet the requirements

 

[PaulRainbow]

Batteries are just energy stores, if you cannot replace the energy used it doesn't matter how big the store is, or what sort of store.

A balanced system starts with an adequate store, let's say enough for 48hrs with no charging, then you need a way to replace that energy, solar is a good solution.

EDIT: typed whilst Tranona was posting his more descriptive reply

 

[RobbieW]

The general consensus on this forum seems to be that there is no such thing as a ‘drop in’ lithium battery on boats. Others with far more expertise than me will be along soon to explain why, but, generally, as well as a suitable charging method you need systems in place to fall back on in the (unlikely) event of the BMS switching lithium house bank off.

Thanks for the reminder about fall back capability

As ever more information required. What sort of boat is it? 270Ah is not a big bank for a boat that might have a bow and stern thruster. what are the usage expectations and cruising pattern? If it is a sailing boat then the usual issue is the lack of charging capacity to replace usage while at anchor or sailing, rather than battery capacity so adding solar that even in the UK will go a long way toward keeping up with consumption. Moving from LA to lithium does need investment in either a regulator for the alternator or a DC/DC charger to control the charge. On the other hand the batteries can take any amount of charge from solar.

The usual starting point in upgrading a system is to go back to basics and do a consumption and charging audit to identify the size of buffer needed to cater for the shortfall then look at means of increasing charge rate. For many boats with modest consumption the solution is just increasing the current LA and adding solar. However there may be space constraints and lithium might be a way of overcoming that or one might want to take advantages of the properties of lithium and consider using more electricity for example cooking by electric.

As to that particular battery it seems very expensive for the capacity as well as being large. Choosing which battery is the end point, not the start. Determine what is needed first and then look at the best product(s) to meet the requirements

There is much I didnt add to my post as I really wanted to know if any boat owners had experience of Titan as a supplier. Another criteria to consider is the space available, the Titan has a slightly smaller footprint as the 4 x gels for not much more than the gel replacement cost. I didnt appreciate until I started looking that Gels are supposed to be able to use 90% of thier capacity, however replacing them with a LiFePo4 doubles the capacity in the same footprint.

Batteries are just energy stores, if you cannot replace the energy used it doesn't matter how big the store is, or what sort of store.

A balanced system starts with an adequate store, let's say enough for 48hrs with no charging, then you need a way to replace that energy, solar is a good solution.

EDIT: typed whilst Tranona was posting his more descriptive reply

Thanks, from what I know 460Ah will do 48hrs without charge on this boat with the intended use. The owner 'thinks' he uses 200A/day, although the boat has a Mastervolt current counter I'm not convinced its properly configured. My own experience of liveaboard cruising was that we used c. 120A/day.


Thanks for the replies, all useful input. There are some reports on Titan batteries on various RV fora and some YouTube stuff, all of which I'm looking at.

 

[Tranona]

200 a day is massive consumption and needs serious charging capability and battery capacity to support. Even charging lithium through a 50A DC/DC will need four hours engine running to replace.

 

[PaulRainbow]

200 a day is massive consumption and needs serious charging capability and battery capacity to support. Even charging lithium through a 50A DC/DC will need four hours engine running to replace.

So far today, we've used 3.4kwh Other half is currently ironing, that's an intermittent 2kw or so. Fully electric, all running through an inverter.

Pedant mode, it's Ah not A

 

[Sea Change]

200 a day is massive consumption and needs serious charging capability and battery capacity to support. Even charging lithium through a 50A DC/DC will need four hours engine running to replace.

We must have used around 200Ah most days, we replaced that with just solar on a 39ft mono, in sunny parts of the world.

 

[Tranona]

We must have used around 200Ah most days, we replaced that with just solar on a 39ft mono, in sunny parts of the world.

yes, but you used electricity for cooking and other 240v things. No indication the boat in question is doing anything like that - it only has 280Ah (135 effective) at the moment according to the OP and just alternator and shorepower for charging. The aim is to become more self sufficient by increasing effective capacity nearly 4 times. Does not make a lot of sense just increasing capacity if that is really the level of 12v consumption.

 

[Tranona]

So far today, we've used 3.4kwh Other half is currently ironing, that's an intermittent 2kw or so. Fully electric, all running through an inverter.

Pedant mode, it's Ah not A

That is a very different pattern of usage from the one in the OP

The use of the lower case "a" is nothing to do with amps or any other unit measure, but to indicate "a day". The volume is taken from the post I was replying to.

 

[Seadawg33]

Hello All:

I am the friend that Robbie mentions in the first post. This is a new to me sailboat and I use it as a floating condo in Europe. She is currently lying in the Southampton area. The goal is to be able to spend two to four nights away from dock without using power. I have made so many changes that it is difficult to create an energy budget. But it is obvious that the current bank is too small. I used the sketch from How to Marine for Drop in Lithium batteries Easy LiFePo4 Conversion - Marine How To as a guide. I had to make some changes as the boat came with both a bow and a stern thruster. There are also electric winches which I believe are powered from the house bank. I am looking to design a system that is expandable. Where I can add solar, an inverter, and perhaps charge from the alternator directly to the LiFePo4 batteries in the future.

If anyone can help me out with the design I would appreciate it. This is a concept design. Once the concept is complete I will add fuses wire sizes etc.

 

[Neeves]

Hello All:

I am the friend that Robbie mentions in the first post. This is a new to me sailboat and I use it as a floating condo in Europe. She is currently lying in the Southampton area. The goal is to be able to spend two to four nights away from dock without using power. I have made so many changes that it is difficult to create an energy budget. But it is obvious that the current bank is too small. I used the sketch from How to Marine for Drop in Lithium batteries Easy LiFePo4 Conversion - Marine How To as a guide. I had to make some changes as the boat came with both a bow and a stern thruster. There are also electric winches which I believe are powered from the house bank. I am looking to design a system that is expandable. Where I can add solar, an inverter, and perhaps charge from the alternator directly to the LiFePo4 batteries in the future.

If anyone can help me out with the design I would appreciate it. This is a concept design. Once the concept is complete I will add fuses wire sizes etc.

You suggest that you will be using the yacht as a floating condo in Europe and that you want to be able to use the yacht for upto 4 days without using power (I assume you mean you will be self sufficient). The yacht must be quite large to need bow and stern thrusters and powered winches, not forgetting the windlass (and engine start). 4 days off grid would be at a limit - I'd think you need a freezer (as well as a fridge)

There has been no mention of gas.

You have also not mentioned water - it would be an unusual condo not to have water relatively freely available - which means either monster tanks or more likely a de sal unit - which will need power. If you don't want to run the engine how are you going to heat the water for the showers etc.

Gas to heat water and 'power' the galley puts a different requirement on your lithium (or any power) needs. Wanting free use of fresh water and an electric galley, hot water (an all electric yacht) adds another, different, dimension.

You are going to enjoy some criticism if you rely on RV experiences for your ideas - you will be told marine and terrestrial applications are not similar.

The resistance to 'drop in' batteries is that many such batteries have a battery management system that is not controllable by the owner (its expected to be faultless) - so its has no data output (so if a cell goes wrong you are not aware) and 'other' drop ins might have a data output but again no ability to modify the charging process. The requirement seems to be a blue tooth data output and the ability to access the BMS to make modifications/alterations. Many Lithium batteries are drop in and though there have been problems with the BMS - they are still freely available and used by many.

I will be corrected for this summary

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

That is a very different pattern of usage from the one in the OP

It is, i posted that information to indicate that 200ah a day isn't "massive" for many boats these days and can easily be replaced with a decent solar array.

The use of the lower case "a" is nothing to do with amps or any other unit measure, but to indicate "a day". The volume is taken from the post I was replying to.

I see that now, my mistake.