Timing marks for fuel injection pump, BMC 2.2 diesel?

[NealB]

Apologies ...... my starboard engine still won't run.

A knowedgeable, but very busy, boat mechanic had a look yesterday.

He thinks there's a problem with the stop/ run mechanism on the injection pump, and has suggested I take the the pump off to have it tested and then overhauled (if needed).

He stressed that it'll save hassle later if I line up the timing marks, before removing it.

So I've removed the raw water pump, which is driven by the same shaft as the injection pump.

Trouble is, my ignorant eyes couldn't find any timing marks (it's a difficult to see spot, tight up against a bulkhead).

Can anyone help point me in the right direction, please (I couldn't get hold of the mechanic today)?

The pump looks like this one:

 

[coopec]

BMC 2.2 Injection Timing - BMC - Canal World
https://www.canalworld.net › ... › BMC

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[NealB]

Thanks again, coopec: thought-provoking, but not conclusive to this dimwit.

I've spoken to a technician at a well known Essex fuel injection specialist.

He assures me that the splined shaft on the injection pump can only be fitted in one position, so I can safely just undo all connections, and then pull the pump out.

That conflicts with what the mechanic tells me.

This is serious oily rag stuff for me, and I'm nervous of creating more problems if I get wrong.

 

[bristoljim]

Thanks again, coopec: thought-provoking, but not conclusive to this dimwit.

I've spoken to a technician at a well known Essex fuel injection specialist.

He assures me that the splined shaft on the injection pump can only be fitted in one position, so I can safely just undo all connections, and then pull the pump out.

That conflicts with what the mechanic tells me.

This is serious oily rag stuff for me, and I'm nervous of creating more problems if I get wrong.

There is a master spline on the injector pump so as the man said can only be fitted in one position - but the 3 bolts which hold the pump on have slotted holes to make small adjustments to the timing so to get the pump back in its original position scribe a line across the triangular pump flange & the triangular plate on the injector pump side of the timing case before unbolting the pump.

Jim

 

[Bilgediver]

There is a master spline on the injector pump so as the man said can only be fitted in one position - but the 3 bolts which hold the pump on have slotted holes to make small adjustments to the timing so to get the pump back in its original position scribe a line across the triangular pump flange & the triangular plate on the injector pump side of the timing case before unbolting the pump.

Jim

Look carefully at the triangular flange and pump body. An engineer could already have marked it on a previous occasion with POP Marks using a centre punch.

 

[NealB]

Thanks Bristoljim and bilgedriver: very helpful.

On closer inspection today, there is what looks, to me, like a little timing marker on the timing case, and it is in line with what could be a very faint scribed line on the pump.

Presumably, I need to rotate the engine so that no. 1 cylinder is at TDC, before removing the pump (revealed, I guess, by removing the little inspection plate over the flywheel )?

And (how's this for ignorance?), if I do need to rotate the engine, what's the easy way to do it? I was expecting there to be a big nut on the crankshaft end .... but there isn't.

I tried (and tried) rotating it by hand, using one of the 'fan' belt pulleys, but it didn't budge a mm. Maybe I'm too old and feeble, or maybe it's an indication of good compression.

 

[Boater Sam]

You need to ---- clearly ---- mark the pump flange exactly where the arrow on the timing chain case so that you can refit it in exactly the same place. The slots where the bolts go are quite long hence the reason to mark the flange against the pointer.

No problem with turning the engine over, the master spline on the pump spindle ensures that it will be correct when you refit it. The master spline is like one spline missing in the gear and the spindle so its fool proof to fit. Don't lose the torque bar that is inserted in the end of the spindle, it takes up any back lash in the splines and is a separate part that can get lost. You pump repairer will not need it so keep it safe on the boat.

 

[NealB]

You need to ---- clearly ---- mark the pump flange exactly where the arrow on the timing chain case so that you can refit it in exactly the same place. The slots where the bolts go are quite long hence the reason to mark the flange against the pointer.

No problem with turning the engine over, the master spline on the pump spindle ensures that it will be correct when you refit it. The master spline is like one spline missing in the gear and the spindle so its fool proof to fit. Don't lose the torque bar that is inserted in the end of the spindle, it takes up any back lash in the splines and is a separate part that can get lost. You pump repairer will not need it so keep it safe on the boat.

Thanks ..... how much do you guys charge for all this tuition?

Does the torque bar come out with the pump?

 

[Boater Sam]

Thanks ..... how much do you guys charge for all this tuition?

Does the torque bar come out with the pump?

Yes, it sits inside the hollow splined spindle with the splined end sticking out, its not fastened in in any way until the pump is relocated inside the sprocket that drives the pump.

 

[NealB]

Wow .... such encyclopaedic knowledge (a PhD in BMC 2.2 diesel engines, surely?).

Thank you, thank you: much appreciated.

It's coming out tomorrow afternoon.

 

[NealB]

Well ...... I lost my nerve on Friday, but plucked up courage to have another look today.

I found a very faint, but very neat line scribed on the pump body (which I've highlghted with pencil, and it lines up with a 'dip' on the little 'timing strip' ( see 2nd photo: other pics added just for fun).

I then disconnected all the fuel line unions, the stop/run lever and throttle lever controls, and the two nuts holding the pump to the block.

Hmmmmm ..... am I brave enough?

Sod it ....it's got to be done, so I gently pulled the injection pump backwards, and ......... it didn't shift a fraction of a mm (I was expecting it to pull out as easily as the raw water pump had done).

After several more ineffectual attempts, I tried, very gently, to tap a small screwdiver into the join between the pump and the timing chain case, using a small hammer.

Again, it didin't shift.

How brutal can I be?

I'm nervous of damaging either, or both, of the mating faces, so haven't the balls to try, say, a bigger hammer.

Am being too nice to it?

Are there any other old tricks I could try?

 

[Boater Sam]

I don't remember that pump but they are all very similar. Are you sure there is not a third nut underneath? Most of these pumps have 3 nuts I think. There is a gasket on the body to the engine, it could just be stuck.

The scribed mark is normally on the point of the arrow on the adjustable strip but it matters not as long as you put it back in exactly the same place.

Levering between is a bad idea, better to try tapping it round to break the seal on the gasket. Careful, its aluminium.

 

[NealB]

Looks like you might be right ..... he said (red-faced).

https://29.cdn.ekm.net/ekmps/shops/...d-now-2095-p.jpg?w=600&h=450&v=1582020-074221

(though that one is from a BMC 1.5)

I did have a good look and feel around beforehand, too (yes, really!).

Oh well ... good job I was tentative.

(Here's one from a 2.2: I'm not sure if that's conclusive proof for 2 or 3 studs).

BMC 2.2 , AUSTIN TAXI 2.2 , DIESEL INJECTION PUMP,3248050 | eBay

 

[pandos]

Inside the the little hatch on the side you can see the timing marks which you line up with engine at a certain point in it's cycle...it's the same pump as on my Md21b.

If you can see the timing marks on the engine probably they should all line up at the sometime..

So why not open this hatch...wind engine round til the timing marks appear and then remove the pump at that point...

Inside the hatch you'll see circular hole and as the pump shaft turns a horizontal line will be seen on the shaft this should be centre of the hole or. Little above or below depending on if you want to advance or retard the timing

The pumps are not too complex look at Bundy's video to demystify them ..

I fitted a new seal kit on mine a few years ago...cot only a few quid nd was really straightforward...

 

[NealB]

Inside the the little hatch on the side you can see the timing marks which you line up with engine at a certain point in it's cycle...it's the same pump as on my Md21b.

If you can see the timing marks on the engine probably they should all line up at the sometime..

Thanks.

I've been told on here, and also by seemingly very knowledgeable BMC enthusiasts at two different injection specialists, that, as long as the pump body goes back, in exactly the same position that it was in before it was removed, then there's no need to look at the engine timing.

This doesn't necessarily apply to other engines, by other manufacturers.

I'm just guessing, but I suspect that Boater Sam knows a helluva lot more about this than I do (you're right: that's not at all difficult!).

 

[pandos]

If everything is put back exactly as it was removed then that is fine but it matters if the shaft in the pump moves relative to the body of the pump, which it will if you have it worked on so it is worth lining up things before removal then easier to put back.

The marking on the position of the pump is about advancing/retarding as it can be adjusted by a few degrees (limited by the fuel pipes etc) after the timing has been set up...

It is the pump timing which decides when to pressurize each fuel line and thereby open the injectors at the precise moment that the respective pistons are in the correct place.

That principle applies to all engines with that type of pump...

 

[Boater Sam]

If everything is put back exactly as it was removed then that is fine but it matters if the shaft in the pump moves relative to the body of the pump, which it will if you have it worked on so it is worth lining up things before removal then easier to put back.

The marking on the position of the pump is about advancing/retarding as it can be adjusted by a few degrees (limited by the fuel pipes etc) after the timing has been set up...

It is the pump timing which decides when to pressurize each fuel line and thereby open the injectors at the precise moment that the respective pistons are in the correct place.

That principle applies to all engines with that type of pump...

Unnecessary, the shaft is master splined, impossible to fit it wrong. Its only the orientation of the body that can affect the timing by a small amount.

 

[NealB]

If everything is put back exactly as it was removed then that is fine but it matters if the shaft in the pump moves relative to the body of the pump, which it will if you have it worked on so it is worth lining up things before removal then easier to put back.

The marking on the position of the pump is about advancing/retarding as it can be adjusted by a few degrees (limited by the fuel pipes etc) after the timing has been set up...

It is the pump timing which decides when to pressurize each fuel line and thereby open the injectors at the precise moment that the respective pistons are in the correct place.

That principle applies to all engines with that type of pump...

A good mate of mine on the Isle of Man (an electrical engineer himself, who has a Newage BMC 2.2 on his old Manx lugger), gave me the name of a very helpful Manx mechanic, who loves BMC engines.

I've just phoned that mechanic, and I'm relieved to say that he gives exactly the same advice as the two technicians I spoke to at two injection specialists: ie as long as the pump goes back in exactly the same position as it is now, I don't need to worry about engine timing, as the pump's shaft can only go in one way (it has a master spline).

 

[NealB]

Unnecessary, the shaft is master splined, impossible to fit it wrong. Its only the orientation of the body that can affect the timing by a small amount.

Thank you .... it gives me confidence that people who know this specific engine are all telling me the same story.

Right .... I'm just off to see if there's a third stud!

 

[Bilgediver]

Thank you .... it gives me confidence that people who know this specific engine are all telling me the same story.

Right .... I'm just off to see if there's a third stud!

It will be hiding where you can't reach Be ready to catch bits which might fall out as the shaft comes free.