Time to remember how to do it the old fashioned way..
- Thread starter Tomahawk
- Start date
jwilson
Well-Known Member
THE ARTICLE SAYS "Unlike aircraft, ships lack a back-up navigation system and if their GPS ceases to function, they risk running aground or colliding with other vessels." Funny - I thought all ships still carried charts, had compasses, and knew their speed from their engine revs. My last contact with commercial shipping was a long time ago, but they also used to do sun and star sights as part of the daily routine.
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
A lot of ships have gone over to completely electronic nav with no chart table at all.
It does make you wonder what would happen if tye GPS was jammed in the Solent on a foggy morning?
It does make you wonder what would happen if tye GPS was jammed in the Solent on a foggy morning?
johnalison
Well-Known Member
eLoran has looked promising for some time but I'm not sure how it could establish itself as long as GPS continues to function normally.
mainsail1
Well-Known Member
They seem to have forgotten that ships can use radar to navigate within the last 20 miles from the shore which is the dodgey bit of any journey.
I hope they don't waste time and money on clumsy old Loran.
I hope they don't waste time and money on clumsy old Loran.
James Marinero
Well-Known Member
Loran, RDF where are you? On the way back it seems...
From Reuters, a new angle on cyberattacks:
LONDON (Reuters) - The risk of cyber attacks targeting ships' satellite navigation is pushing nations to delve back through history and develop back-up systems with roots in World War Two radio technology.
Ships use GPS (Global Positioning System) and other similar devices that rely on sending and receiving satellite signals, which many experts say are vulnerable to jamming by hackers.
About 90 percent of world trade is transported by sea and the stakes are high in increasingly crowded shipping lanes. Unlike aircraft, ships lack a back-up navigation system and if their GPS ceases to function, they risk running aground or colliding with other vessels.
South Korea is developing an alternative system using an earth-based navigation technology known as eLoran, while the United States is planning to follow suit. Britain and Russia have also explored adopting versions of the technology, which works on radio signals.
The drive follows a series of disruptions to shipping navigation systems in recent months and years. It was not clear if they involved deliberate attacks; navigation specialists say solar weather effects can also lead to satellite signal loss.
Last year, South Korea said hundreds of fishing vessels had returned early to port after their GPS signals were jammed by hackers from North Korea, which denied responsibility.
In June this year, a ship in the Black Sea reported to the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center that its GPS system had been disrupted and that over 20 ships in the same area had been similarly affected.
U.S. Coast Guard officials also said interference with ships' GPS disrupted operations at a port for several hours in 2014 and at another terminal in 2015. It did not name the ports.
Full story:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shipping-gps-cyber-idUSKBN1AN0HT
From Reuters, a new angle on cyberattacks:
LONDON (Reuters) - The risk of cyber attacks targeting ships' satellite navigation is pushing nations to delve back through history and develop back-up systems with roots in World War Two radio technology.
Ships use GPS (Global Positioning System) and other similar devices that rely on sending and receiving satellite signals, which many experts say are vulnerable to jamming by hackers.
About 90 percent of world trade is transported by sea and the stakes are high in increasingly crowded shipping lanes. Unlike aircraft, ships lack a back-up navigation system and if their GPS ceases to function, they risk running aground or colliding with other vessels.
South Korea is developing an alternative system using an earth-based navigation technology known as eLoran, while the United States is planning to follow suit. Britain and Russia have also explored adopting versions of the technology, which works on radio signals.
The drive follows a series of disruptions to shipping navigation systems in recent months and years. It was not clear if they involved deliberate attacks; navigation specialists say solar weather effects can also lead to satellite signal loss.
Last year, South Korea said hundreds of fishing vessels had returned early to port after their GPS signals were jammed by hackers from North Korea, which denied responsibility.
In June this year, a ship in the Black Sea reported to the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center that its GPS system had been disrupted and that over 20 ships in the same area had been similarly affected.
U.S. Coast Guard officials also said interference with ships' GPS disrupted operations at a port for several hours in 2014 and at another terminal in 2015. It did not name the ports.
Full story:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shipping-gps-cyber-idUSKBN1AN0HT
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
Re: Loran, RDF where are you? On the way back it seems...
The captain of one of the RFAs that supported the Falklands rescue told me he made his approach using sextant.
I have one somewhere - need to practise.
The captain of one of the RFAs that supported the Falklands rescue told me he made his approach using sextant.
I have one somewhere - need to practise.
DJE
Well-Known Member
GPS relies on very low power transmissions from distant sattelites so it is very easy to jam. With GPS jammed AIS will cease to function.
eLoran uses powerful shore-based transmitters so it is much more difficult to jam.
Some very busy ports have become very reliant on AIS so they are seeking a back-up system of electronic position fixing.
eLoran uses powerful shore-based transmitters so it is much more difficult to jam.
Some very busy ports have become very reliant on AIS so they are seeking a back-up system of electronic position fixing.
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MedinaView
Well-Known Member
In the Solent I have heard the ships navigating over the radio. The Ch.12 watches them on radar and tells them when to turn.
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
Was that before or after the CG went over to a central call centre?
davidej
Well-Known Member
Correct me if I am wrong but arn't there now three systems.
American - GPS
Russian -Glonass
EU - Galileo
And modern receivers can work on any of these so hackers are unlikely to bring the world to a halt
American - GPS
Russian -Glonass
EU - Galileo
And modern receivers can work on any of these so hackers are unlikely to bring the world to a halt
mainsail1
Well-Known Member
i think he was talking about VTS.
DJE
Well-Known Member
Ok so you need three jammers.
Bru
Well-Known Member
Nope, because all three systems use the same frequency bands
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
And require just a tiny signal strength to jam them
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
So time to fess up...
How many of can still do it with paper?
I will admit to being very heavily reliant on my GPS location.. (especially handy on the E coast where landmarks are few and far between). And I would not care to do it by DR at full speed. But if push came to shove I could still go back to paper.
How many of can still do it with paper?
I will admit to being very heavily reliant on my GPS location.. (especially handy on the E coast where landmarks are few and far between). And I would not care to do it by DR at full speed. But if push came to shove I could still go back to paper.
James Marinero
Well-Known Member
re @Davidej There is also a Chinese GPS satellite constellation plus one being built, BeiDou. I write about it in 'Cause of All Causes', as well as spoofing of AIS. Just sayin...
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James Marinero
Well-Known Member
colind3782
Well-Known Member
It's been a few years but I still have charts and the tools on board and I could certainly find my way to the pub using them! 
Leighb
Well-Known Member
I like to have the relevant charts available on the chart table with appropriate tools.
Charts are much easier for passage planning as you can see your whole route and work out where you want waypoints.
On a longer trip I like to write down the buoys and other landmarks so that when SWMBO asks what is that green buoy? I can give a confident answer. ?
I very occasionally practice taking a bearing just out of interest.
However I use the Plotter entirely when on passage. So much easier to follow than steering by compass.
Charts are much easier for passage planning as you can see your whole route and work out where you want waypoints.
On a longer trip I like to write down the buoys and other landmarks so that when SWMBO asks what is that green buoy? I can give a confident answer. ?
I very occasionally practice taking a bearing just out of interest.
However I use the Plotter entirely when on passage. So much easier to follow than steering by compass.
