Time for another Bav. thread; already

PeterGibbs said:
The "!study" throws more light on YM's greying editorial team than the boats in question - it's a study in thoughtless low tec nostalgia, quibbling over trivia etc
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But YM's greying editorial team is just a reflection of the age band where early retirement, excess wealth and free time is clustered in the UK.

PeterGibbs said:
I've just bought a German sailing mag - Palstek - 200 pages loaded with teccy comment and appraisals, compared with YM
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Now unusually on this point I feel compelled to defend YM. What we are debating here is an extensive article based on YM's new scientific review process. Isn't this what you are praising in the German mag?
 
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Bosun Higgs said:
The argument always was about build quality and I can see no way in which an old banger like a Contessa could ever be of the same build standard as a modern factory built boat. In porduction management, quality comes from volume and technology not hand work.
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As a geriatric, I can well remember when volume boatbuilding took off, one of the arguments which never disputed by the builders was boats intended for volume production were not designed with seaworthiness as their number one priority. The number one priority was that they would "pop out" of one piece moulds whereas the older designs with tumblehome or encapsulated keels were made in 2 piece moulds which was fra more labour intensive.

Over the years, it's become accepted production boats are better designed and built but I don't think that's true, voluminous, more affordable and capable of doing the job - yes I'd agree, but better designed or better built, I wouldn't agree at all. The problem is most of these older boats are just that - old, they're generally dark and somewhat smelly below and the gelcoats taken some bashing over the years. Compared to a clean smelling, bright modern boat there's no contest in the desirability stakes for most people, but as to build quality and seaworthiness, the older boats (generally) are far superior.

And I speak as a 2 boat owner, a heavyweight old Vancouver 27 and a modern(ish) lightweight Beneteau. I love both those boats but I know which one is better built and which one I'd prefer to be sailing in a blow - and it isn't the Beneteau!

Cheers, Brian.
 
P4Paul said:
I do think it a strange comparision: a brand new, just unwrapped Bav with empty tanks against a Contessa with Jeremy Rogers
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I don't see a Co32 owners conspiracy here, it was just a one-off opportunity to compare a remanufactured Co32 that felt like new against and brand new Bavaria.

What everyone here seems to be overlooking is why does this Jeremy Rogers yacht resuscitation facility need to exist in the first place? It certainly raises some doubt over the Co32's 10/10 score for design and construction.

A far more interesting follow on review would be something like a Rival 34 that has just had a £30k overhaul pitted against a 9 year old Bavaria 34. The obvious weak points of that new Bavaria 32 can be attributed to Bavaria trying to do too much in 32ft length overall.
 
Would have been fun... and more relevent I think... to compare say a 1989 Fulmar 32 and the 2009 Bav 32.....


Shame the Bav wasnt sorted.... The dealer should be kicked.... I bet it cost them sales...
 
The obvious weak points of that new Bavaria 32 can be attributed to Bavaria trying to do too much in 32ft length overall.

I am not sure about that... I think the weak point of the 32 is that they have tried to hard to keep that headline price down... previous boats have been better kitted out... the last generation came with 6 cockpit winchs iirc and german system for the mainsheet!

Looks to me like they have cut back on some gear... to keep the price down.

And thats the problem... properly sorted out that boat is gonna set you back 95k......

Now who is gonna spend that?? I wont...

If the £ goes up 20 percent against the euro in the next 2 years... that will shaft anyone who buys one at the current price.
 
photodog said:
The obvious weak points of that new Bavaria 32 can be attributed to Bavaria trying to do too much in 32ft length overall.

I am not sure about that... I think the weak point of the 32 is that they have tried to hard to keep that headline price down... previous boats have been better kitted out... the last generation came with 6 cockpit winchs iirc and german system for the mainsheet!

Looks to me like they have cut back on some gear... to keep the price down.

And thats the problem... properly sorted out that boat is gonna set you back 95k......

Now who is gonna spend that?? I wont...

If the £ goes up 20 percent against the euro in the next 2 years... that will shaft anyone who buys one at the current price.
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I think you have to accept that Britain, is not a Bavaria target market.
Out here in the Med you rarely see a Bavaria on the water under 36ft and then those boat are actually 38 ft long.
It is only the single handed Brit that sail out here in small dark English made yachts.
I doubt that you would be able to sell one Contessa 32 at 130000euro to a Greek /Italian person.However well it was suppose to sail in the English channel

cheers bobt
 
photodog said:
The obvious weak points of that new Bavaria 32 can be attributed to Bavaria trying to do too much in 32ft length overall.

I am not sure about that... I think the weak point of the 32 is that they have tried to hard to keep that headline price down.
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In terms of YM's scoring system the big 5 point hit was the bad chart table provision, something that would not have been a problem with an early noughties 34ft Bavaria or your 32 footer?

Another negative is caused by pushing the helm position right into an extreme aft position.

The final big negative that money cannot fix is the excess volume aft. Bavaria previously avoided the worst excesses of fat arse hull design seen in Bens and Jens during the 1998-2008 time frame
 
Twister_Ken said:
" no way in which an old banger like a Contessa could ever be of the same build standard as a modern factory built boat."

There speaks a man who hasn't had the pleasure of taking a good look at Gigi.
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I remember that film but I guess that by now she's every bit as saggy as aboat of that age! :D

You cant tell the good quality of a boat construction from just looking at it, though you might well be able to tell a bad one that way. Mass production brings all sorts of benefits from quality through repetition, fresh raw materials, higher raw material quality, automation, environment, bulk purchasing, quality control systems, technical skills, problem solving resources. Could go on but I wont.

To put it another way, which car do you objectively think would have the highest build quality - a hand made Morgan or a VW ? There can only be one answer and it isnt Morgan.

But you need to differentiate between what Bav are trying to produce ( ie where in the spectrum from Oyster to Legend / Catalina they have designed a Bav to be) and the product quality ( ie the degree to which they consistently produce a boat to the exact spec they have chosen). This product quality will definitely be higher that the likes of a Contessa but Bav clearly dont set out to make a boat for the same sector as the Contessa targetted. Or to put it another way once more - the laminate on the Contessa might be thicker but the one on the Bav will be made of better raw materials, will be more consistent, will have strength where its needed rather than everywhere and will have been better mnade.
 
big 5 point hit was the bad chart table provision, something that would not have been a problem with an early noughties 34ft Bavaria or your 32 footer?



Actually that chart table is very simular to the one on my 31...... the 32 and 34 and every other Bavaria I have ever seen had proper tables... But on the smaller boats that table cuts back on the heads space.... we have a very big heads on my 31.... with a proper wet locker... space to shower in.... so that was a hit with the missus..

that chart table and the mainsheet attatchemant are lifted straight off my boat....

They could have put a bigger table in... but then the heads would have been smaller....
 
Blimey - for what they have squeezed into 32' that looks pretty good!! We had a 30'er till last year and this 32 seems much larger (judging by room in the cabins)
 
Having just read the article I can only feel that Chris Beeson has blown any journalistic integrity he might have had.

As I think Ken pointed out, like comparing apples and pears, and Mr Beeson obviously likes a nice pear. A little bit of effort by me and Flaming would have the Bav pi$$ on Gigi but that wouldn't have the required headline result would it. Total bo**ocks article.

Also, cute as Gigi might look, everyone conveniently forgets just how slow Co32s are by modern standards.
 
Not so much in this thread, but seems to me there's a lot of people looking for affirmation and jockeying for position in some sort of yacht ownership pecking order and the actual bashing of the Bavs is a bit of a red herring...
 
doris said:
Having just read the article I can only feel that Chris Beeson has blown any journalistic integrity he might have had.

As I think Ken pointed out, like comparing apples and pears, and Mr Beeson obviously likes a nice pear. A little bit of effort by me and Flaming would have the Bav pi$$ on Gigi but that wouldn't have the required headline result would it. Total bo**ocks article.

Also, cute as Gigi might look, everyone conveniently forgets just how slow Co32s are by modern standards.
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I think thats a bit unfair.... they might be pushing the boundaries of what the new testing system can be used for.... but I think it was a good bit of fun.... I think they were pretty carefull to point out that they are not comparable boats...
 
Quandary said:
Perhaps for you, but sailing performance is what interests me, otherwise I would have a nice old converted trawler with a big Gardner engine. (that day is coming) Sailing performance is influenced by the manufacturer more than the designer who works to a brief and not all Farr boats are fast. I take the view that if it really interested Bavaria they would not market this boat with the quality of gear they have done. However the budget must control it and more and bigger winches, a lead keel, MDS masts, TD Furlex, travellers, controllable cars, turning blocks, etc would all add a big chunk to the budget and probably increase their potential market by less than 10%. However, for myself, I have always been a sucker for quality and would be inclined to discount a product where the maker did not display an urge to target it. When you look at the spec. I don't think this boat(new Bav 32) is really that cheap unless, as you suggest, it is priced by the cubic foot.
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Got to say I agree with you which is why I bought a Starlight. Bav clearly arent aimed at the same market as the Contessa was, though in terms of sheer performance I suspect the Bav 32 would indeed be faster. Design knowledge moves on all the time and just as a modern hatch like a Focus can outperform and old Sports car, so I would expect the Bav to moutperform the Contessa given a level start - ie the same degree of non standard set up.

But after a career that included both small batch production engineering and mass manufacturing I would differentiate quality from design. Winches, masts etc are design choices. Quality to me is how well Bav execute what they start out to execute - reject levels, product variation, complaints
 
Bosun Higgs said:
The argument always was about build quality and I can see no way in which an old banger like a Contessa could ever be of the same build standard as a modern factory built boat. In porduction management, quality comes from volume and technology not hand work.
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How well do the comparative build qualities of Bentleys and Fiats bear out that theory? Chippendale and IKEA? Hasselblad and Kodak? Avon and Plastimo?

It would be interesting to see a magazine review the build quality of a brand new Contessa 32 against a brand new Bavaria 32.
 
galadriel said:
The Contessa has always been the benchmark for a safe seaworthy boat. Although it has a BR of 48% it only manages a Stix of 33, 1 point above the minimum of 32 and only .7 above that of the Bav (the low stix for the Bav was pointed out but failed to be highlighted for the Contessa). A bit of research will see that the Etap 32S has a Stix of 36, I'm sure there are many other 32 ft boats with similar ratings.
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Interesting, I have been looking at the Stix factor - much against my better judgement, I have always ignored it in boat reviews in the past.
It seems to me that downflooding angle (as it manifests itself in the Stix calculation) may discriminate in favour of lightly ballasted, beamy, deep hulled vessels to the detriment of more traditional designs. Downflooding is of greater concern than merely getting seawater on your carpets and any water below will adversly affect stability; but then again it is of greater moment (yep, quiteliterally as they say on the radio) to a wide boat than a narrow one.
I would not go so far as to say that manufacturers, yacht designers and our blessed European Government have gerrymandered this factor but it is jolly convienient.
Some good background here:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/sailing-boats-stability-stix-old-ratios-13569.html

Sorry, this should probably be a new thread.
 
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