Tiller pilot options

[chris-s]

After motoring and helming for 13 hours to the Scillies due to absence of any real wind, whilst not wishing to repeat the exercise im keen to explore options. Of course, ow we are here there is a lovely breeze I would have longed for earlier.

We have an st2000 on our little 23 foot pegasus 700 which is generally fine except when motoring, it’s too close to the outboard and it just doesn’t know which way to go. I’ve considered removing the electronics from it and mounting them elsewhere so the unit just has the drive ram.

Any idea their ideas?

 

[LONG_KEELER]

After motoring and helming for 13 hours to the Scillies due to absence of any real wind, whilst not wishing to repeat the exercise im keen to explore options. Of course, ow we are here there is a lovely breeze I would have longed for earlier.

We have an st2000 on our little 23 foot pegasus 700 which is generally fine except when motoring, it’s too close to the outboard and it just doesn’t know which way to go. I’ve considered removing the electronics from it and mounting them elsewhere so the unit just has the drive ram.

Any idea their ideas?

You can obtain a fluxgate compass that will connect to the st2000. You site the compass well away from the outboard. They come up on ebay around £60.

Raymarine COMPASS SENSOR | eBay

 

[hpeer]

Look at a Peaigic tiller pilot.
It comes in 3 pieces
Control head
Current controversy
Electric ram

It is a good bit more than a RM but is a vastly superior piece of kit.
The control head can be mounted quite far from the current controller; port, starboard, front facing, or rear facing.
And it has a small remote.

 

[Telstar26]

I had the same problem so dumped the Raymarine and switched to a Simrad. Their tillerpilots have the compass at the other end so don't have that problem.

 

[[70521]]

With no wind I'd tie off the tiller and enjoy the ride, no need for any tillerpilot. With little wind you should be able to balance the sails and sail hands off.

 

[Ceirwan]

Look at a Peaigic tiller pilot.
It comes in 3 pieces
Control head
Current controversy
Electric ram

It is a good bit more than a RM but is a vastly superior piece of kit.
The control head can be mounted quite far from the current controller; port, starboard, front facing, or rear facing.
And it has a small remote.

+1 for the Pelagic.

The actuator looks pretty indestructible.
Fitted mine 2017.
Since then its steered on two north sea crossings, various trips up and down the coast. etc.

Downwind with a quartering sea in 25knots? Not a problem, it works hard, but keeps the boat well on course.

 

[Daydream believer]

A friend of mine has just bought the raymarine av100 kit complete. Knowing how useless my raymarine ram was he wanted it without the ram, but buying as a complete kit was cheaper than buying in parts with no ram, from the same firm; he then bought a ram for circa £ 250 which works off the raymarine ccu etc for £250 ( less than half the price of the raymarine ram) He says the kit works fantastically & steers to wind , waypoints of compas etc. Is silent , faster than the raymarine & the motor sits on top of the ram rather than in it as the raymarine one.He bought it from a Dutch manufacturer.
The backup from the dutch firm was ( according to him) excellent
So it may be worth the Op doing a bit of research on the Dutch options before forking out cash.
Suggestions of using sails to balance a boat in low wind strengths whilst motor sailing are just armchair "£$%^&*
I agree with the comment that the Simrad is better than the raymarine st 2000
I have had a few autopilots - now on my 7th in 18 years plus an aeries. The aeries is the only one that has not broken down. Just wish it would take me where I want to go. But hey ho ?

 

[fredrussell]

With no wind I'd tie off the tiller and enjoy the ride, no need for any tillerpilot. With little wind you should be able to balance the sails and sail hands off.

Honestly, what nonsense. A 23ft boat with the tiller tied off would be slightly off course in seconds and even more off course in minutes. And how many 23ft fin or bilge keel boats will sail themselves in a straight line, sails balanced or not? A nice 30 ft long-keeler? Definitely. A frisky 23ft boat? No chance.

 

[Daydream believer]

+1 for the Pelagic.
Downwind with a quartering sea in 25knots? Not a problem, it works hard, but keeps the boat well on course.

What sort of boat? What sensors control it?

 

[Daydream believer]

What sort of boat? What sensors controlthe autopilot?

 

[kwb78]

A friend of mine has just bought the raymarine av100 kit complete. Knowing how useless my raymarine ram was he wanted it without the ram, but buying as a complete kit was cheaper than buying in parts with no ram, from the same firm; he then bought a ram for circa £ 250 which works off the raymarine ccu etc for £250 ( less than half the price of the raymarine ram) He says the kit works fantastically & steers to wind , waypoints of compas etc. Is silent , faster than the raymarine & the motor sits on top of the ram rather than in it as the raymarine one.He bought it from a Dutch manufacturer.

The Dutch supplier was PC Nautic. The other reason for choosing that particular ram over the Raymarine one was that it includes a rudder position sensor which the Raymarine one does not. That should help with performance somewhat since it’s not having to approximate the rudder position by setting the hard over time. There are some slight wiring differences to account for that, but it’s relatively simple to set up. The ram also has a slightly longer stroke than the Raymarine one as a result of having the motor above the ram instead of in-line with it.

They also sell a slightly cheaper version which I think is a drop in replacement for the Raymarine Q047 drive without the rudder reference.

It is very similar to the pelagic autopilot ram, and is probably sourced from the same manufacturer.

PC Nautic also sell their own hardware implementation of the open source pypilot autopilot which is a bit less expensive than the full Raymarine kit, which might be an option if not bothered about easy integration with other kit.

 

[[70521]]

Honestly, what nonsense. A 23ft boat with the tiller tied off would be slightly off course in seconds and even more off course in minutes. And how many 23ft fin or bilge keel boats will sail themselves in a straight line, sails balanced or not? A nice 30 ft long-keeler? Definitely. A frisky 23ft boat? No chance.

Clearly, I sailed my old 28 footer incorrectly for years. How I am still alive must be a miracle.

 

[kwb78]

You can obtain a fluxgate compass that will connect to the st2000. You site the compass well away from the outboard. They come up on ebay around £60.

You can’t interface that sensor directly with the ST2000, you would also need a compass head unit like an ST50 Compass to transmit the data to it via Seatalk. In any case, it is my understanding that the ST2000 will still use the internal flux gate for its immediate corrections regardless of external heading input (which is used as a more long term reference), so if there is significant local magnetic interference that could still prove problematic.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

You can’t interface that sensor directly with the ST2000, you would also need a compass head unit like an ST50 Compass to transmit the data to it via Seatalk. In any case, it is my understanding that the ST2000 will still use the internal flux gate for its immediate corrections regardless of external heading input (which is used as a more long term reference), so if there is significant local magnetic interference that could still prove problematic.

That's good to know . Thanks

 

[Daydream believer]

With no wind I'd tie off the tiller and enjoy the ride, no need for any tillerpilot. With little wind you should be able to balance the sails and sail hands off.

Dream on.
Most boats can be sailed upwind Ok , but once the direction is off the wind they become more & more directionally unstable. People seem to think that constant tweaking is self steering. It is not. The boat either steers, or it does not. One only has to look at the amount of movement a small boat needs in the tiller to realise how unbalanced many are & how easily they fall off course.
One can play about with bungee, backed sails etc. until the cows come home, but wave motion & wind strength is never the same for more than a few minutes.
I would hasten to add that a 23 ft boat is quite a lot different to a 28 ft one regards balance

 

[onesea]

If your considering Palegic, also consider PC Nautic
https://pcnautic.nl/nl/autopilot/pcnautic-autopilot-detail

I can vouch for pre sales service & fast delivery. I can say it works, however having only used once to date I cannot review.
Initial thoughts, it maintained course well with less movements than previous tiller pilot but that was seriously dated.

Same software as Palegic similar set up just Dutch.
You could look to Pypilot which they are based off and build your own, however I am no electrician so I bought.

 

[KompetentKrew]

If your considering Palegic, also consider PC Nautic
https://pcnautic.nl/nl/autopilot/pcnautic-autopilot-detail
…
Same software as Palegic similar set up just Dutch.
You could look to Pypilot which they are based off and build your own, however I am no electrician so I bought.

PC Nautic is PyPilot - I don't believe that's true of Pelagic.

Both use the Wuxi Hongba HB-DJ809 actuator, but the Pelagic's is the same length as a Raymarine Q047 and is a drop in replacement for it - you can buy just the actuator and use it with your Raymarine SmartPilot or Evo with no fiddling - whereas PC Nautic for some reason chose a 10cm longer stroke. I think Pelagic's bracket is also better quality.

 

[thinwater]

After motoring and helming for 13 hours to the Scillies due to absence of any real wind, whilst not wishing to repeat the exercise im keen to explore options. Of course, ow we are here there is a lovely breeze I would have longed for earlier.

We have an st2000 on our little 23 foot pegasus 700 which is generally fine except when motoring, it’s too close to the outboard and it just doesn’t know which way to go. I’ve considered removing the electronics from it and mounting them elsewhere so the unit just has the drive ram.

Any idea their ideas?

I assume you are implying some sort of interference with the compass. You did not say.

The pilot should be on opposite side from the motor. I assume it is.

My guess is that this has NOTHING to do with the compass directly, because thousands of users don't have this problem. At most it would motor a steady course that was slightly different from the numerical heading (compass offset). So lets start over with more likely causes that I have experienced.

a. The power plug is intermittently loose. This is common and results in a split second power drop, which causes the AP to lose fix. Replace the plug. You don't need to use an ST2000 plug. (I have an ST2000 on my Farrier F-24)
b. The outboard is noisy (electrically) due to failed or failing diodes. A simple noise suppression circuit might also help.

But it is not the compass.

 

[KompetentKrew]

The ram also has a slightly longer stroke than the Raymarine one as a result of having the motor above the ram instead of in-line with it.

Forgive me, I made my other reply before seeing this one.

The stroke length of PC Nautic's actuators is entirely the choice of PC Nautic - they are available in various lengths, strokes and reduction ratios, and are available with the potentiometer in the same length as without (not sure how long Wx Hongba have been offering this option though). The one with the potentiometer has a slightly larger body. I have no idea why PC Nautic chose to make theirs longer, but I think they're stocking more than one size - the longer one for their PyPilot system and another the "correct" length, to replace the Raymarine Q047.

The manufacturer of these actuators is the Wuxi Hongba Mechanical Electrical Equipment Co. Ltd, Wuxi being a city on the Yangtze river delta, in the same densely-populated region as Nanjing, Changzhou, and Shanghai.

These actuators are about $50 each from the factory, minimum order 8, so after shipping, VAT and import duty you're looking at a fraction over £100 each if you can arrange a group buy. I really hope a British chandlery will take this up, as these actuators are as at least as good as Raymarine's, if not better, and a fraction of the price.

I have several of these available to buyers in the EU.

I am currently writing a knowledge dump of everything I know about them, currently at about 3500 words, which I will post in due course.

However, this doesn't really help OP as the actuators are no good without a control head. I like Raymarine's SmartPilot / Evo.

 

[Telstar26]

I assume you are implying some sort of interference with the compass. You did not say.

The pilot should be on opposite side from the motor. I assume it is.

My guess is that this has NOTHING to do with the compass directly, because thousands of users don't have this problem. At most it would motor a steady course that was slightly different from the numerical heading (compass offset). So lets start over with more likely causes that I have experienced.

a. The power plug is intermittently loose. This is common and results in a split second power drop, which causes the AP to lose fix. Replace the plug. You don't need to use an ST2000 plug. (I have an ST2000 on my Farrier F-24)
b. The outboard is noisy (electrically) due to failed or failing diodes. A simple noise suppression circuit might also help.

But it is not the compass.

Sorry, that's wrong. It definitely is the compass. With an outboard motor in a cockpit well, the Raymarine's compass is about 15cm away from the engine cover. The Simrad's compass is about 70cm away which is far enough.

It's only a problem with some engines. On my boat (Parker 21) I had no problems with the old Mercury 2 stroke, but the problem appeared when I changed to a Yamaha 4 stroke. As I said, changing to a Simrad cured it