Tidal Speed Limit Change?

[vjmehra]

I think you are probably spot on, but in effect whether the PLA or the Clippers are the driving force, the PLA are pushing it through.

What would be nice is if the Clippers used their horn's to signal which way they're going!!!

 

[vjmehra]

I just got a response (and replied) to an e-mail from the London Assembly, interestingly at least it does sound like the Department for Transport do take objections seriously and at least take the time to go over them, so those that do have concerns about the limits, write in, I have!

Anyway, the e-mail:

From: xyz@london.gov.uk]
Sent: 18 October 2011 10:46
To: Vidal Mehra
Subject: RE: Thames Bye Laws

Hello again

Please find below the response John has received from the Port of London Authority on Friday last week.

Further to the email enquiry that you forwarded on 5 Oct, please find our reply below; sorry that it has taken longer than I would have wished to come back to you.
The current River byelaws were adopted in 1978. We have brought the new byelaws forward (which are substantially the same as the 1978 set) in order to update the provisions to reflect, among other things, the changing uses of the river, developments in technology and progress in safety management.
The enquiry about speed limits that you have forwarded is very similar to one that we are currently in direct correspondance with a river user on; they made a formal objection to the Department for Transport as part of our public consultation. The byelaws include a proposal for a 12-knot speed limit between Wandsworth and Magaretness (just down river of the Thames Barrier). Where passenger vessel operators can demonstrate they operate to the High Speed Craft regulations (or similar standards) they will be allowed to operate at up to 25 knots between Wandsworth and Lambeth and up to 30 knots between Cherry Garden Pier (a little down river of Tower Bridge) and Margaretness. A strict speed limit of 12 knots will apply to all vessels between Lambeth Bridge and Cherry Garden Pier.
The byelaws also allows a similar exemption for high speed leisure craft outside of the 12-knot limited stretch of river between Lambeth and Cherry Garden Pier - but to differing, but equally strict standards. Any dispensation would have to be subject to their demonstrating, for example, that they have gained suitable higher training in vessel operation, appropriate passage planning provision, their vessel having been inspected and that they carry an Automatic Identifcation System transponder. These elements would be subject to annual checking and after successful completion the owners would receive a certificate for that vessel to operate at higher speeds. This would give us confidence that the owner could safely operate their vessel at higher speeds on what is an increasingly busy river; the speed limit will not prevent a single commercial operator from conducting his business in the manner it is being conducted today. Furthermore, it is difficult to find another port with waters as constrained and congested as the River Thames that does not have a speed limit.
I hope that this email addresses your constituent's concerns satisfactorily. If you need anything further do please let me know.
Regards

xyz

My response:

Hi xyz,

Many thanks for passing this on, however I’m not sure I fully understand the response, there are some points I am not clear on, I’m hoping you may be able to clarify:

‘Any dispensation would have to be subject to their demonstrating, for example, that they have gained suitable higher training in vessel operation, appropriate passage planning provision’- What training in particular and what passage requirements, are they suggesting a formal passage plan needs to be submitted to someone in order to go out for a quick 10 minute run about for example? On this point perhaps it would be helpful if they could suggest an appropriate RYA endorsed course, such as RYA Powerboat Level 2?

‘the speed limit will not prevent a single commercial operator from conducting his business in the manner it is being conducted today’- Presumably they don’t define RYA training schools as commercial operators?

If possible, could you forward these questions on?

Many thanks,

Vidal

 

[vjmehra]

A busy day! Just received a response from the PLA too, from my previous e-mail:

From: Parkes, Julian [mailto:julian.parkes@pla.co.uk]
Sent: 18 October 2011 13:30
To: Vidal Mehra
Subject: RE: Thames Byelaws 2011 - Speed Limits

Vidal
Thank you for this.

I'll be in touch when we have some specific details on the recreational vessel requirements for the Certificate of Compliance.

In terms of a speeding problem, I'm afraid there is an ongoing issue in the River.

To give you some examples of the more serious: we recently had an incident (currently under investigation by the MAIB) where a private RIB hit a Thames Clipper vessel, at high speed, at night, under Blackfriars Bridge. The RIB was wrecked and the two occupants lucky to be alive. We've just successfully prosecuted the RIB driver.
A number of years ago, two people died when a drunken driver hit the weirs at Richmond Lock at speed.
Last year a person under the influence of drink ran down (and over) a rowing boat with 5 ladies in at Richmond - one suffered a broken leg. Again we were lucky not to have any deaths. We successfully prosecuted that person earlier this year.
There have been many more, I'm afraid.

Regards
Julian

My response:

Hi Julian,

Many thanks for responding, but the problem you highlight sounds like drunk driving, one which I can’t believe anyone would argue against!

But to re-iterate my previous point, I’m not objecting to speed limits at all, merely to arbitrary speed limits for leisure users when commercial users are shooting along at ‘x knots’ as this would clearly not be in the name of safety!

Regards,

Vidal

 

[neale]

Of the three incidents mentioned, two of them happened at Richmond where there is an 8 knot speed limit already in place. Surly this demonstrates that a speed limit does not, in itself, stop dangerous driving and potentially fatal accidents.

Why quote these incidents? Sounds like the 'only' genuine case that MAY have been avoided by a new speed limit is that of the RIB and the Clipper at Blackfriars. If drink was involved here as it was in the two Richmond cases, I doubt a speed limit would have made a blind bit of difference.

 

[vjmehra]

Exactly, presumably because there aren't many actual incidents caused by excess speed...

Seems logical to me, as much as I'm against an enforced 12 knot speed limit, doesn't mean I feel the need to go above 12 knots when its not safe to do so and when there is a lot of traffic around, it often isn't.

Anyway, I made it clear in my response to the PLA I didn't feel those examples were particularly relevant!

 

[Chris_d]

Of the three incidents mentioned, two of them happened at Richmond where there is an 8 knot speed limit already in place. Surly this demonstrates that a speed limit does not, in itself, stop dangerous driving and potentially fatal accidents.

Why quote these incidents? Sounds like the 'only' genuine case that MAY have been avoided by a new speed limit is that of the RIB and the Clipper at Blackfriars. If drink was involved here as it was in the two Richmond cases, I doubt a speed limit would have made a blind bit of difference.

The incident at Blackfriers is within the current 12knot advisory limited area as well so none if the incidents quoted are valid arguments for a mandatory speed limit as far as Margeness. I don't think anyone would seriously object to a limit in the Pool of London but behond Cherry Garden pier it is much less confined and hardly a harbour.

 

[vjmehra]

A very valid point, I'd really encourage anyone who feels strongly about this to write to the PLA/Department for Transport, the more objections they receive, the more seriously they will have to take the concerns...

 

[vjmehra]

Latest Response from the PLA:

Vidal
I appreciate your point - thanks.
I'll be in touch when we have some detail on the Certificate of Compliance, and we can then perhaps meet to discuss that and your wider concerns regarding the provision of exemptions.
Regards
Julian

 

[vjmehra]

So, in theory the new speed limits come into place from tomorrow, but I can't see anything on the PLA website. Is anyone aware whether the new law is coming into force, whilst I disagree with it, I don't want to go breaking any laws?

 

[vandy]

I am afraid Vidal; the mandatory speed limit has come into force.

Look at this link:
http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/Thames_Byelaws_Sealed_Version_14-07-2011.pdf


And the pictue:


Hope you are all doing well.

 

[lenseman]

and, if your vessel is proceeding at a speed in excess of 12 knots, you have to show an obligatory all round flashing yellow light by day and by night?

Rule 31.2 (plus 16.3d)

GOTCHA !

 

[vjmehra]

Hmm, but isn't that PDF from the proposal?

 

[vjmehra]

Just an update from the PLA....the limits are NOT in place currently!

Vidal
I've not been in contact, because I'm afraid things are moving a little slowly.
We are still seeking to resolve objections following the formal consultation - that will not be resolved before the New Year. Certainly, the new Byelaws will not be in force for some weeks yet.
I intend to send you the recreational vessel Certificate of Compliance requirements before Christmas, so that you can understand what we will be asking of you; and you can then consider your own objection.
Please bear with us!
Thanks very much.
Regards
Julian