teddington_lock
New member
When will it start if/when it does ?
Tidal Speed Limit Change?
- Thread starter vjmehra
- Start date
vjmehra
Member
01-Dec-2011
snapper
New member
It could well be that they will apply for an exemption along with the Thames Clippers and others. They will probably need AIS, plus other things to get issued the "Certificate of Compliance" (see proposed byelaw 16.4 note 1). They will then be free to operate up to 30 knots.
So we will be left in the ludicrous situation of large passenger vessels along with Police and PLA launches all flying around at high speed, leaving private boats wallowing along at under 12 knots.
Just compare that with the roads and imagine the buses all being allowed to travel at 60mph while cars are limited to 30mph.
The PLA are hell bent on eliminating all private vessels from their stretch of the Thames.
vjmehra
Member
Yep, ridiculous and definitely not due to safety!
As for the RIBs, they go well above 30knots past Cherry Garden Pier currently I think though, so this would still be a big blow for them.
As for the RIBs, they go well above 30knots past Cherry Garden Pier currently I think though, so this would still be a big blow for them.
vjmehra
Member
This is my e-mail to the RYA and their dissapointing (and disbelievable, given the feedback from this and the RIBNET forum) response:
Dear Mr Mehra
Thank you for your email.
There is currently no speed limit below Wandsworth Bridge so this is the first opportunity the PLA has had to regulate speed below the Bridge.
As far as recreational vessels are concerned, we have secured an exemption to the speed limit for vessels used for public or recreational safety purposes and training for such purposes. However, the feeling amongst those representing the clubs likely to be affected was that the speed limit might actually improve safety for recreational vessels navigating the river and the permit system for high-speed ferries etc would provide an effective means of managing the behaviour of such craft and the wash they produce, to the benefit of recreational vessels. As such, the RYA has not objected to proposed Byelaw 16.
Notwithstanding the above, the Byelaws are open for public consultation so it is open to any boater or club concerned by the Byelaws to object directly, although strictly speaking the period for making such objections has now closed. I attach the formal notice published in the London Gazette that sets out the details of how to make an objection.
With kind regards.
Gus
Gus Lewis
Head of Legal & Government Affairs
Royal Yachting Association
T: 023 8060 4220 | E: gus.lewis@rya.org.uk
RYA House, Ensign Way, Hamble, Southampton, Hampshire, SO31 4YA www.rya.org.uk T: 023 8060 4100 F: 023 8060 4299
-----Original Message-----
From: Web.Support@rya.org.uk [mailto:Web.Support@rya.org.uk]
Sent: 26 September 2011 21:31
To: Jude Rose
Subject: RYA Feedback form submitted
Category: Chief Executive's Department
Topic: General
Name: Vidal Mehra
Email: vjmehra@yahoo.co.uk
Are you an RYA Member: No
Membership Number:
Subject: Thames Proposed Speed Limits
Message: Hi,
I have been recently talking with a number of leisure power and sail users of the Thames all of whom are extremely concerned about the new speed limits proposed by the PLA.
In short the new proposals seem to restrict the speed of leisure users, whilst increasing the speed of commerical users, non of which is in the name of safety and seems completely unjustifiable.
Does the RYA have an official stance on this at all? Also, either way, are you able to assist a number of concerned leisure boaters (a mixture of RYA members and non-members, I will be a member shortly myself) in liasing with the relevant authorities to talk about these proposals?
Many thanks,
Vidal
Dear Mr Mehra
Thank you for your email.
There is currently no speed limit below Wandsworth Bridge so this is the first opportunity the PLA has had to regulate speed below the Bridge.
As far as recreational vessels are concerned, we have secured an exemption to the speed limit for vessels used for public or recreational safety purposes and training for such purposes. However, the feeling amongst those representing the clubs likely to be affected was that the speed limit might actually improve safety for recreational vessels navigating the river and the permit system for high-speed ferries etc would provide an effective means of managing the behaviour of such craft and the wash they produce, to the benefit of recreational vessels. As such, the RYA has not objected to proposed Byelaw 16.
Notwithstanding the above, the Byelaws are open for public consultation so it is open to any boater or club concerned by the Byelaws to object directly, although strictly speaking the period for making such objections has now closed. I attach the formal notice published in the London Gazette that sets out the details of how to make an objection.
With kind regards.
Gus
Gus Lewis
Head of Legal & Government Affairs
Royal Yachting Association
T: 023 8060 4220 | E: gus.lewis@rya.org.uk
RYA House, Ensign Way, Hamble, Southampton, Hampshire, SO31 4YA www.rya.org.uk T: 023 8060 4100 F: 023 8060 4299
-----Original Message-----
From: Web.Support@rya.org.uk [mailto:Web.Support@rya.org.uk]
Sent: 26 September 2011 21:31
To: Jude Rose
Subject: RYA Feedback form submitted
Category: Chief Executive's Department
Topic: General
Name: Vidal Mehra
Email: vjmehra@yahoo.co.uk
Are you an RYA Member: No
Membership Number:
Subject: Thames Proposed Speed Limits
Message: Hi,
I have been recently talking with a number of leisure power and sail users of the Thames all of whom are extremely concerned about the new speed limits proposed by the PLA.
In short the new proposals seem to restrict the speed of leisure users, whilst increasing the speed of commerical users, non of which is in the name of safety and seems completely unjustifiable.
Does the RYA have an official stance on this at all? Also, either way, are you able to assist a number of concerned leisure boaters (a mixture of RYA members and non-members, I will be a member shortly myself) in liasing with the relevant authorities to talk about these proposals?
Many thanks,
Vidal
No Regrets
Active member
Er, hang on a minute, Margaret Ness limit is only a bit past West India Dock, isn't it?
It hardly affects people wishing to go coastal by such a huge degree, although it would seem fairer to apply a limit at which we could at least 'plane.
12 knots would be creating far MORE wash than 14!
It hardly affects people wishing to go coastal by such a huge degree, although it would seem fairer to apply a limit at which we could at least 'plane.
12 knots would be creating far MORE wash than 14!
rubberduck
Well-known member
Question is will it put people off coming up. In our case it probably would but only slightly. So thats slightly less chance of us coming up to st Kats & spending money locally & in the west end. Is that a good thing ?
thames cruiser
Member
Precisely! And 30 knots is only slightly more than 14 isn't it? Oops, sorry, probably undermining a perfectly good argument there!!
At the risk of sounding mutinous, it would be pretty cool if all the Thames Boaters intending to attend the Jubilee Pageant withdrew in protest at the PLA's total ambivolence towards recreational users. Thing is, a) I don't think they'd care; b) I'm not sure the objections are unanimous. But I'll nail my colours to the mast - I do care!!
Wavey
Well-known member
Some please tell me where I apply for the job of writing regulations like this.
Oh sorry. I'm a boat owner who uses the Thames so that excludes me doesn't it! Heaven forbid logic and common sense should be taken into account.
Oh sorry. I'm a boat owner who uses the Thames so that excludes me doesn't it! Heaven forbid logic and common sense should be taken into account.
bradtarga34
New member
That's the 'Y' in the RYA for ya, not too many yachts can crack 12 knots...
No Regrets
Active member
In fairness, I have no issue with the limit, it only really affects upstream of West India Dock, who wants to plane all the way to Wandsworth anyway?
The scenery is good once in the region of Tower Bridge, and once the pesky Ribs have been made redundant, we only have to look out for high speed ferries!
The scenery is good once in the region of Tower Bridge, and once the pesky Ribs have been made redundant, we only have to look out for high speed ferries!
vjmehra
Member
Those of us that have to make the trip all the way back to Kew!!!
Dave_Seager
Member
In my experience, the fast clippers stay below 12 knots upstream of Cherry Garden Pier. As a passenger, 12 knots feels very slow after the fast run up from Woolwich.
vjmehra
Member
Agreed! It does feel slow, but that is all about to change with the new restrictions (I say restrictions, of course for the clippers they are the opposite, they are only restrictions to the rest of us)!
vjmehra
Member
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8797217/Speed-limit-on-motorways-to-rise-to-80mph.html
Haha, the river limit goes down, the motorway limit goes up!
Haha, the river limit goes down, the motorway limit goes up!
lenseman
Active member
- Joined
- 3 Jun 2006
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- 7,077
- Location
- South East Coast - United Kingdom
I think you need to get Sturgess on your side, as a one man army, he should irritate the bejesus out of the PLA over these new restrictions.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283760
vjmehra
Member
The more the merrier!
After the dissapointing response from the RYA, I decided to write to both the PLA and some MP's within the London Assembley, lets see what happens...
After the dissapointing response from the RYA, I decided to write to both the PLA and some MP's within the London Assembley, lets see what happens...
vjmehra
Member
Just to post a latest (not particularly exciting) update, I received this from the PLA:
'Mr Mehra
Thank you for your representation.
I've no doubt the Department for Transport will also have responded to you.
We have received several late responses and we are seeking to address those concerns as well.
I am responsible for co-ordinating the PLA's response to the consultation, and will be in touch with you shortly.
Thank you'
The Department for Transport merely said this:
'Dear Mr Mehra
Thank you for your e-mail of 29 September set out your views of the proposed Thames Byelaws put forward by Port of London Authority.
I note that you copied your e-mail to the PLA.'
Hopefully this leads to something more concrete as I also got confirmation that the London Assembley are at least looking at my message (come on Boris ;-)
'Mr Mehra
Thank you for your representation.
I've no doubt the Department for Transport will also have responded to you.
We have received several late responses and we are seeking to address those concerns as well.
I am responsible for co-ordinating the PLA's response to the consultation, and will be in touch with you shortly.
Thank you'
The Department for Transport merely said this:
'Dear Mr Mehra
Thank you for your e-mail of 29 September set out your views of the proposed Thames Byelaws put forward by Port of London Authority.
I note that you copied your e-mail to the PLA.'
Hopefully this leads to something more concrete as I also got confirmation that the London Assembley are at least looking at my message (come on Boris ;-)
vjmehra
Member
Latest update:
From: Parkes, Julian [mailto:julian.parkes@pla.co.uk]
Sent: 14 October 2011 13:29
To: Vidal Mehra
Subject: Thames Byelaws 2011 - Speed Limits
Vidal
Thank you for this.
As you know, the Byelaws allow for any vessel operator to apply for Certificate of Compliance to exceed the speed limit in particular zones above and below the central London area.
We are currently defining the competency requirements required in those cases for recreational vessel operators, and I will be in touch with you as soon as I can in order to provide you with a copy of these and the other Certificate of Compliance requirements and to discuss your concerns further.
You'll appreciate I'm sure that there are very few, if any port and harbour areas in the UK where there is not a speed limit already in place. There is already an 8kt speed limit in place above Wandsworth and we have an advisory 12kt speed limit in place in central London.
Regards
Julian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response:
Hi Julian,
Many thanks for coming back to me, it is appreciated!
I did notice that certificate of compliances were available, however the impression I got was that these would be far too costly for recreational users to obtain. That said I would be very supportive of a licencing requirement (such as the Powerboat ICC) for recreational users, perhaps this is something that could be discussed?
With regards to your point on speed limits, I have no issue with speed limits as such, I have an issue with a two tier system where multi-ton commercial vessels can go along at 30 knots, whilst recreational users are restricted to an arbitrary 12 knot speed limit.
I have to confess, I can’t see the issue with the current 12 knot advisory limit, that works well and I know from experience is generally adhered too, bar the specific locations and situations where it becomes safe to go faster.
As for the 8 knot limit, this is already in place, so no point arguing about it I guess, but in my personal opinion it should only be in place past Kew, rather than Wandsworth as the river is wide enough to this point and the vast majority of leisure users slow down for rowers (again something taught on an ICC course).
Many thanks,
Vidal
From: Parkes, Julian [mailto:julian.parkes@pla.co.uk]
Sent: 14 October 2011 13:29
To: Vidal Mehra
Subject: Thames Byelaws 2011 - Speed Limits
Vidal
Thank you for this.
As you know, the Byelaws allow for any vessel operator to apply for Certificate of Compliance to exceed the speed limit in particular zones above and below the central London area.
We are currently defining the competency requirements required in those cases for recreational vessel operators, and I will be in touch with you as soon as I can in order to provide you with a copy of these and the other Certificate of Compliance requirements and to discuss your concerns further.
You'll appreciate I'm sure that there are very few, if any port and harbour areas in the UK where there is not a speed limit already in place. There is already an 8kt speed limit in place above Wandsworth and we have an advisory 12kt speed limit in place in central London.
Regards
Julian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response:
Hi Julian,
Many thanks for coming back to me, it is appreciated!
I did notice that certificate of compliances were available, however the impression I got was that these would be far too costly for recreational users to obtain. That said I would be very supportive of a licencing requirement (such as the Powerboat ICC) for recreational users, perhaps this is something that could be discussed?
With regards to your point on speed limits, I have no issue with speed limits as such, I have an issue with a two tier system where multi-ton commercial vessels can go along at 30 knots, whilst recreational users are restricted to an arbitrary 12 knot speed limit.
I have to confess, I can’t see the issue with the current 12 knot advisory limit, that works well and I know from experience is generally adhered too, bar the specific locations and situations where it becomes safe to go faster.
As for the 8 knot limit, this is already in place, so no point arguing about it I guess, but in my personal opinion it should only be in place past Kew, rather than Wandsworth as the river is wide enough to this point and the vast majority of leisure users slow down for rowers (again something taught on an ICC course).
Many thanks,
Vidal
martin
Member
question is..whos wants this change..
In my opinion it is most likely not the PLA..it is most likely to be the commercial operators who are the real people pushing it through and who want the leisure boats gone...
In my experience, over the past 20 years on the Thames, I have never had an incident with any private sail or power owner ...how ever I have lost count of the number of worrying moments i have had with the clippers etc.
I feel for them because I think they offer a great service and I would not want to see them gone. But I do think having one rule for commercial and one for private is asking for trouble..If you have one of those things coming up from behind and one coming from ahead (often the case) the one behind is keen to overtake and will perform any manouvre to do so.., the one ahead will not alter course or slow down for you, but happily alter for his partners advantage...you have to guess what there strategy is going to be and guess here best to duck into to avoid an incident... what a lovely place to pass time
In my opinion it is most likely not the PLA..it is most likely to be the commercial operators who are the real people pushing it through and who want the leisure boats gone...
In my experience, over the past 20 years on the Thames, I have never had an incident with any private sail or power owner ...how ever I have lost count of the number of worrying moments i have had with the clippers etc.
I feel for them because I think they offer a great service and I would not want to see them gone. But I do think having one rule for commercial and one for private is asking for trouble..If you have one of those things coming up from behind and one coming from ahead (often the case) the one behind is keen to overtake and will perform any manouvre to do so.., the one ahead will not alter course or slow down for you, but happily alter for his partners advantage...you have to guess what there strategy is going to be and guess here best to duck into to avoid an incident... what a lovely place to pass time