penberth3
Well-known member
That's a very good attitude, don't change it.
Tidal energy generator experiments in Littlehampton.
- Thread starter rotrax
- Start date
That's a very good attitude, don't change it.
oldmanofthehills
Well-known member
The history of the High Aswan Dam gives you a clue to the issues. All the silt from the welsh mountains could render the whole lot worthless in a generation as a big mud filled puddle develops, with not enough actual water to drive generators.
In the meantime the breeding and growing grounds for small fishes is destroyed so stocks in Irish sea reduced and the wading birds and migratatory have no where to feed or rest. Remember tghis isd the doorstep of Slimbridge we are talking about. Marginal reduction in fertility of Irish sea due to loss of silt nutrients
Would possibly ruin recreational yachting from Cardiff, Portishead and Weston if not managed well though I would accept that if the only cost
PilotWolf
Well-known member
Weird though... we used to visit Barcombe Mills as kids and watch the weirs and flood waters around town (Lewes), used to love paying in the local stream.
I'm perfectly comfortable in engine rooms but electrical equipment rooms also give me the chills.
W/
sarabande
Well-known member
All hydro schemes undergo a detailed risk assessment at the planning stage and this (most definitely) includes an assessment of payback time for the proposed concrete mass. Use is made of recycled concrete from e.g. buildings/bridges etc. Where is the evidence for your "larger schemes" claim ?
Your "Small schemes..." sentence lacks any details to beat the triviality and facile nature of its statements. It seems that you are inclined to blaze away indiscriminately and without real knowledge. It would be impossible for the Environment Agency to approve any hydro scheme which did not offer significant sustainability benefits, and no landowner or backer would think of investing a penny unless there were a rock solid RTI time.
It is indeed only a few days ago that the Environment Agency renewed the abstraction / production licence of the hydro-electric station which I manage, after a 5 year continuous assessment of the environmental impacts and benefit, and we have made a significant contribution of nearly 2 million kWh to the national power bill in that time. And over the last three weeks in the winter run, we have recorded more salmon over 800mm length ascending the weirs than at any time in the last 24 years. This is a likely consequence of a complicated series of fish passes and larinier which were designed from the outset to improve the upstream passage of running fish, plus a major release of 8000 fry just over 6 years ago by a salmon trust
Please think carefully and provide verifiable data before you damn hydro with your untenable and wild comments.
PilotWolf
Well-known member
Zing
Well-known member
Groan, the FUD arguments, it’s stultifying. There are ways to mitigate those issues. We just need to get on with things like this. Nuclear, wave, geothermal too.
sarabande
Well-known member
It's a highly popular way to ensure that concrete has a multi-use life.
The ICE (Institution of Civil Engineers) has masses of reference material, typically...
THE GLOBAL CHALLENGE OF RECYCLED CONCRETE | Sustainable Construction: Use of Recycled Concrete Aggregate (icevirtuallibrary.com)
It's known as embodied (or sometimes, retained) carbon.
Here's a good document
Ways to Recycle and Reuse Concrete (thebalancesmb.com)
and here's a German video
Recycling concrete - YouTube
The ICE (Institution of Civil Engineers) has masses of reference material, typically...
THE GLOBAL CHALLENGE OF RECYCLED CONCRETE | Sustainable Construction: Use of Recycled Concrete Aggregate (icevirtuallibrary.com)
It's known as embodied (or sometimes, retained) carbon.
Here's a good document
Ways to Recycle and Reuse Concrete (thebalancesmb.com)
and here's a German video
Recycling concrete - YouTube
jamie N
Well-known member
I must disagree with this. Here in Scotland most schemes are small(ish) schemes and unmanned, only visited on a PMS basis, or when the monitoring systems report a fault, or the potential of one.
I copied the below info, apologies for just a quick 'cut & paste', but it does illustrate how widespread these little systems can be, and are supplying for a local area that might be far away from the grid.
I'm not an expert, but this is my understanding, but am prepared to be corrected of course.
Conventional hydro-electric
Several of Scotland's hydro-electric plants were built to power the aluminium smelting industry, but many more were built in the mid-20th century by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board to supply the communities of the Highlands. These were built in several "schemes" of linked stations, each covering a catchment area, whereby the same water may generate power several times as it descends.
Name Operator Scheme Location (UK grid reference) Council area Gross head (m) Capacity (MW) Commissioned
Achanalt [27] Scottish and Southern Energy Conon NH308619 Highland 20 3 1956
Aigas [28] Scottish and Southern Energy Affric-Beauly NH474436 Highland 18 20 1962
Allt Fionn [29] Osspower/Glenfalloch Estate - NN331209 Stirling 180 2 2012
Allt-na-Lairige [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NN231136 Argyll and Bute 249 6 1956
Auchtertyre [31] Innogy - NN353290 Stirling - 0.7 2000
Blantyre [32] Innogy - NS695583 South Lanarkshire - 0.575 1995
Bonnington [33] Drax Group Lanark NS884416 South Lanarkshire 30 11 1927
Braevallich [34] Innogy - NM958073 Argyll and Bute - 2.2 2006
Carnoch [35] Innogy - NM847606 Highland 245 1.35 2006
Carsfad [36] Drax Group Galloway NX604854 Dumfries and Galloway 20 12 1936
Cashlie [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN507419 Perth and Kinross 142 11 1959
Cassley [38] Scottish and Southern Energy Shin NC396232 Highland 113 10 ?
Ceannacroc [39] Scottish and Southern Energy Great Glen NH223108 Highland 90 20 1959
Chliostair [40] Scottish and Southern Energy - NB059091 Western Isles 125 1 1960
Clachan [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NN191133 Argyll and Bute 294 40 ?
Clunie [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN912597 Perth and Kinross 53 61 1955
Cuaich [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN674876 Highland 27 2.5 1959
Cuileig [36] Scottish and Southern Energy - NH179767 Highland - 3.2 2002
Culligran [28] Scottish and Southern Energy Affric-Beauly NH377404 Highland 60 19 1962
Dalchonzie [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN740219 Perth and Kinross 29 4 1958
Deanie [28] Scottish and Southern Energy Affric-Beauly NH291387 Highland 113 38 1963
Douglas Water [42] Innogy - NN054054 Argyll and Bute 173 3 2008
Drumjohn [36] Drax Group Galloway NX521973 Dumfries and Galloway - 2 1985
Earlstoun [36] Drax Group Galloway NX614818 Dumfries and Galloway 20 14 1936
Errochty [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN772593 Perth and Kinross 186 75 1955
Fasnakyle [28] Scottish and Southern Energy Affric-Beauly NH318295 Highland 159 69 1951
Finlarig [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN585345 Perth and Kinross 415 16.5 1955
Foyers British Aluminium Company - NH503217 Highland 179 200 1896, reconfigured 1971[43]
Foyers Falls [44] Scottish and Southern Energy Foyers NH503217 Highland 108 5 1974
Garrogie [45] Innogy - NH500132 Highland - 2.4 2005
Garry Gualach [46] Innogy - NH170004 Highland - 0.78 2002
Gaur [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN464569 Perth and Kinross 30 7.5 1953
Gisla [47][48] Scottish and Southern Energy - NB128257 Western Isles 47 0.7 ?
Glen Tarbert [49] Innogy - NM865605 Highland - 0.85 2000
Glendoe Scottish and Southern Energy Glendoe NH451031 Highland 600 100 2009
Glenlee [36] Drax Group Galloway NX606805 Dumfries and Galloway 120 24 1935
Glenmoriston [39] Scottish and Southern Energy Great Glen NH364156 Highland 93 37 1957
Grudie Bridge [27] Scottish and Southern Energy Conon NH320623 Highland 168 18.7 1950
Inverawe [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NN016321 Argyll and Bute 36 25 1963
Inverbain [50] Innogy - NG786549 Highland - 1 2005
Invergarry [39] Scottish and Southern Energy Great Glen NH319013 Highland 53 20 1956
Inverlael[51] Innogy - NH189854 Highland 120 2.5 2009
Kendoon [36] Drax Group Galloway NX604876 Dumfries and Galloway 46 24 1936
Kerry Falls [52] Scottish and Southern Energy - NG829719 Highland 56 1 1952
Kilmelfort [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NM832141 Argyll and Bute 111 2 1956
Kilmorack [28] Scottish and Southern Energy Affric-Beauly NH494442 Highland 17 20 1962
Kingairloch [53] Scottish and Southern Energy - NM836532 Highland - 3.5 2005
Kinlochleven [54] Alcan - NN191617 Highland - 30 1909
Lairg [38] Scottish and Southern Energy Shin NC575069 Highland 10 3.5 1959
Lednock [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN698303 Perth and Kinross 91 3 1961
Livishie [39] Scottish and Southern Energy Great Glen NH353159 Highland 259 15 1962
Loch Dubh [55] Alcan - NC149012 Highland 166 1.2 1948
Loch Ericht [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN553727 Perth and Kinross 55 2.2 1962
Loch Gair [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NR924908 Argyll and Bute 109 6 1961
Lochaber [56] Rio Tinto Alcan Lochaber NN127751 Highland - 65 1944
Lochay [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN545349 Perth and Kinross 180 45 1958
Lubreoch [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN453417 Perth and Kinross 30 4 1958
Luichart [27] Scottish and Southern Energy Conon NH394570 Highland 56 34 1954
Lussa [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NR735260 Argyll and Bute 116 2.4 1952
Morar [57] ? - NM683922 Highland 5 1 1948
Mossford [27] Scottish and Southern Energy Conon NH330633 Highland 161 18.6 1957
Mullardoch [28] Scottish and Southern Energy Affric-Beauly NH222309 Highland 27 2.4 1955
Nant [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NN015208 Argyll and Bute 172 15 1963
Nostie Bridge [58] Scottish and Southern Energy - NG852272 Highland 149 1 1948
Orrin [27] Scottish and Southern Energy Conon NH436545 Highland 222 18 1959
Pitlochry [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN935577 Perth and Kinross 15 15 1950
Quoich [39] Scottish and Southern Energy Great Glen NH107011 Highland 101 18 1955
Rannoch [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN529582 Perth and Kinross 156 44 1930
River E [59] Innogy - NH521164 Highland 287 3 2007
Shin [38] Scottish and Southern Energy Shin NH573974 Highland 81 18.6 1958
Sloy [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NN320098 Argyll and Bute 277 152.5 1950
Sron Mor [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NN161200 Argyll and Bute 46 5 1957
St Fillans [37] Scottish and Southern Energy Breadalbane NN690246 Perth and Kinross 253 16.8 1957
Stanley Mills [60] Innogy - NO114328 Perth and Kinross - 0.84 2003
Stonebyres [33] Drax Group Lanark NS850441 South Lanarkshire 51 5 1927
Storr Lochs [61] Scottish and Southern Energy - NG500506 Highland 136 2.4 1952
Striven [30] Scottish and Southern Energy Sloy-Awe NS056839 Argyll and Bute 123 8 1951
Tongland [62] Drax Group Galloway NX694535 Dumfries and Galloway 32 33 1935
Torr Achilty [27] Scottish and Southern Energy Conon NH446545 Highland 16 15 1954
Trinafour [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN724647 Perth and Kinross 91 0.5 1959
Tummel Bridge [41] Scottish and Southern Energy Tummel NN763590 Perth and Kinross 53 34 1935
Wing Mark
Well-known member
All that adds up to between 1 and 2% of current electricity supply.
And that's it, all the obvious sites, low hanging fruit picked in the middle of the last century.
It's good in itself, but it's not a way forwards.
Wing Mark
Well-known member
Perhaps if we didn't have so many civil servants running around after tuppenny-ha'penny schemes for the benefit of subsidy recipients, they could have got to grips with having an actual energy policy?
jamie N
Well-known member
The sites are in some cases extremely isolated, and are providing power where the grid doesn't get to, and replacing non-green generation. Also the Lochaber site provides power for the very large Alcoa plant, which is the only Aluminium plant in the UK, so quite significant I'd say.
It's specifically very suitable for Scotland, where we've an abundance of water, and a sparsity of population centres.
1.6GW isn't small beer.
It's specifically very suitable for Scotland, where we've an abundance of water, and a sparsity of population centres.
1.6GW isn't small beer.
oldmanofthehills
Well-known member
If we destroy the ecosphere we starve. Not a trivial consequence. Step warily in disturbing Mother Earth, she may not react the way we want. There are no ways to create an alternative 400 square mile tidal mudflat and sandbanks if we dam the Severn
The Severn Estuary barrage has been discussed endlessly and deemed either impractical or over destructive or both. The papers supporting it are so scientifically naive as to make one wonder if they were sketched out by an ad agency. Even the Cardiff Barage created for urban enhancement proved to be a stagnant disaster at first and need aerating like a giant aquarium to keep it nice let alone productive
Some tidal streams such as between various Scottish Islands are well worth harnessing if only we could make the turbine systems robust enough though a turbine in the Corryvreckan might by a bit of a job. Other breeding grounds for our feathered and scaled brothers are best left alone. I quite like hydro in its place
Solar plants in the Sahara are probably mankinds best hope. We just need to learn to think big and stop going to war with/stealing from each other.
Zing
Well-known member
I don‘t think displacing a number of wading birds and reducing razor clam numbers counts as destroying the ecosphere. It could more accurately be said that their loss is to protect the ecosphere. Also, it would not destroy the mud flats. The period between high and low tide would be considerably reduced, that’s all.
I agree the Sahara has the potential to provide huge energy. By my reckoning all the world’s energy needs handsomely. If it were my choice I would just take it. The current residents are not capable of utilising it and there are so few living there to oppose a military offensive, it would be such a great economic and environmental prize for Britain and the world to justify a little war and theft. So I don’t share your pacifist view. This was of course how the world’s greatest empire did things. I don’t understand why it has gone out of favour.
jamie N
Well-known member
Good grief!! Do I sense someone ironing his Union Jack Keks here, and painting a globe pink?
This video might curb the Daily Express view of diplomacy!
Stemar
Well-known member
As mentioned, big hydroelectric projects have big ecological implications, same with big tidal ones; IIRC the Rance dam is something of a local ecological disaster. However, smaller projects that don't use dams, just catch some of the energy as it goes by, could well be done sensitively and have minimal environmental impact, while providing a useful output for those dull grey, windless winter days and nights.
I still can't see that we'll be able to just switch to electric cars, though. I see "interesting times" ahead for our crowded little island
I still can't see that we'll be able to just switch to electric cars, though. I see "interesting times" ahead for our crowded little island
oldmanofthehills
Well-known member
I am no strict pacifist but perhaps believe in being moral.
More relevantly the lesson of the late 20th century is that we know that asymmetric warfare means that small groups of dissidents with access to modern weapons and a chemical text book can destroy dispersed infrastructure and ambush and kill any guardians. Thus the resident populations need to see and experience the benefits of such infrastructure. But I guess you know that too and are just being provocative
lustyd
Well-known member
Our civilisation won't be around long enough to see fossil fuel run out, according to the people who have done the modelling. I feel like we should force scientists to properly think through any new generation methods which are introduced before it's too late again. Surely pulling energy out of the moon's orbit can't be wise in the long term! https://cs.stanford.edu/people/zjl/pdf/tide0.pdf
capnsensible
Well-known member
The experimental wave power installation on the East Side of Gibraltar appears to be living up to expectations.
SandyP
Active member
Quite
Environmentalists have been arguing for a decade the problem isnt just how to make more energy, but in fact to drastically reduce our consumption
Capt Popeye
Well-known member
Yea quite so quite so ; BUT is not any energy produced by Wind /Water Electricity , not Gas
But we are being forced to use Electricity and NOT GAS
So at a guess I assume that our Electricity useage will greately increase whilst our Gas useage will lessen