Through Hull and 90 degree for Tight Space

[Halo]

Ideally I would like to replace my skin fittings and seacocks etc with Trudesign composite ones. The trouble is my seacocks are grouped together under a floor board at the bottom of the companionway steps. The arrangement from new is that a 90 degree M/F elbow is screwed directly onto the skin fitting and the seacock into that. So the seacock is horizontal.
The info from Trudesign and on the various youtube videos is to screw the Trudesign seacock directly onto the skin fitting and not via their 90 degree composite elbow. This makes it stick straight out away from the hull and needs a lot of room
The PBO video says if you cant fit the seacock onto the skin fitting then make a new skin fitting hole elsewhere - i e where you can accomodate the sticking out seacock etc. The trouble is that is simply not a sensible on my boat.
Has anyone else faced this problem and come up with a solution ?
If not I may be back to the original layout and DZR

 

[rogerthebodger]

What is the reason that Trudesign say that you cannot screw an elbow into the skin fitting and a seacock into the elbow

 

[ithet]

I don't think there is a solution with Trudesign if you do not have the room. An elbow directly on a through hull adds two points of failure before each valve. I managed to fit the Trudesign, valves before elbows as they specified, and actually wanted to get away from the original elbows on through hull arrangement. However, have a look at the Forspar seacocks with a 90deg bend built in.

 

[Tranona]

There is no downside to using all DZR components in terms of longevity.

 

[lustyd]

Not in terms of longevity maybe but TruDesign have many upsides aside from that. Also DZR doesn’t solve the fundamental problem it just uses a different material.

 

[Tranona]

Not in terms of longevity maybe but TruDesign have many upsides aside from that. Also DZR doesn’t solve the fundamental problem it just uses a different material.

What is the fundamental problem? The only upside of composite ball valves is that they seem to be batter at not sticking . The downside as well illustrated by this thread is that they are not a perfect substitute for metal fittings in existing boats.

 

[pioneer]

Ideally I would like to replace my skin fittings and seacocks etc with Trudesign composite ones. The trouble is my seacocks are grouped together under a floor board at the bottom of the companionway steps. The arrangement from new is that a 90 degree M/F elbow is screwed directly onto the skin fitting and the seacock into that. So the seacock is horizontal.
The info from Trudesign and on the various youtube videos is to screw the Trudesign seacock directly onto the skin fitting and not via their 90 degree composite elbow. This makes it stick straight out away from the hull and needs a lot of room
The PBO video says if you cant fit the seacock onto the skin fitting then make a new skin fitting hole elsewhere - i e where you can accomodate the sticking out seacock etc. The trouble is that is simply not a sensible on my boat.
Has anyone else faced this problem and come up with a solution ?
If not I may be back to the original layout and DZR

Float My Boat in Northampton (not the one that does floating docks etc) make a skin fitting with 90 degree bend. Might be worth a look.

 

[lustyd]

What is the fundamental problem? The only upside of composite ball valves is that they seem to be batter at not sticking . The downside as well illustrated by this thread is that they are not a perfect substitute for metal fittings in existing boats.

There are many upsides which have been discussed many times on this forum, you’re blind to them so I won’t bother repeating them here.
The fundamental problem is that adding connections before a seacock adds failure points and plumbing to the outside of the cock. That defeats the purpose of a seacock and is the reason TD advise against it. It can also create a lever with which the through hull or bend could be snapped. This is the same whether metal or composite and the idea that metal is somehow stronger has been shown time and again to be delusional.

 

[Tranona]

There are many upsides which have been discussed many times on this forum, you’re blind to them so I won’t bother repeating them here.
The fundamental problem is that adding connections before a seacock adds failure points and plumbing to the outside of the cock. That defeats the purpose of a seacock and is the reason TD advise against it. It can also create a lever with which the through hull or bend could be snapped. This is the same whether metal or composite and the idea that metal is somehow stronger has been shown time and again to be delusional.

Do you have any evidence at all that this would happen? Have you ever tried to damage metal fittings?

Without evidence - or even some stringent tests this is just a straw man argument. Thousands of boats have the same arrangement as the OPs. Are they all doomed?

 

[lustyd]

Do you have any evidence at all that this would happen? Have you ever tried to damage metal fittings?

Without evidence - or even some stringent tests this is just a straw man argument. Thousands of boats have the same arrangement as the OPs. Are they all doomed?

Do you have any evidence that composite fittings would have any issue at all? It’s just best practice to have the cock next to the through hull. It’s the whole point of sea cocks, or are you arguing that point too? Not sure what your agenda is here, you seem to be trying to talk OP out of using TruDesign when the problem would be the same with metal fittings.

And yes, I have used levers on metal fittings, as have many other people, and yes they break as expected.

 

[rogerthebodger]

There are people who seem to have a aversion to any skin fittings or seacocks the ones other that of yellow metal

When I was building my steel boat I looked long and hard about skin fittings and the arrangement of my seacocks as I wished to avoid any galvanic corrosion si I went for 316 fittings and 3-piece ball vales of 316 as usen in chemical industries.

I was very aware of crevices' corrosion of stainless steel and in particular in the threads, so I made sure of using good sealant to eliminate any sea water getting into the threads.

I have been working on a ferro boat that has the steel corrode due to yellow metal fittings, so I used plastic uPVC and it was frowned on by the inspector so to me sometimes the comment of used for a long time does show some resistance to change. but to me it up the user to use what he thinks is suitable.

Afterall boats are made of GRP (glass reinforce plastic)

 

[Tranona]

Do you have any evidence that composite fittings would have any issue at all? It’s just best practice to have the cock next to the through hull. It’s the whole point of sea cocks, or are you arguing that point too? Not sure what your agenda is here, you seem to be trying to talk OP out of using TruDesign when the problem would be the same with metal fittings.

And yes, I have used levers on metal fittings, as have many other people, and yes they break as expected.

Why do you seem to always think I have an agenda? No I am not trying to talk him out of fitting TruDesign - they won't fit his space anyway. That is one of their disadvantages as I observed - they are not a perfect replacement for the normal metal fittings.

Your "best practice" does not stand up to any testing. It is another of those myths with no evidence either theoretical or empirical to support it.

You really claim to have broken a metal 90 degree bend with a lever? You must be very strong. Why would you "expect" them to break? Please post a youtube of you doing it and a list of the many others you claim have done it.

I can understand dezincified brass fittings failing around the threads if excess force is applied - plenty of examples of this, but DZR does not dezincify so retains its full strength.

 

[Daverw]

Surely if your current install has though hulls with bends and then the valve, what is the difference to fitting a TD in the same location, understand it does have the issue of additional joints but you already have that. I would install as needed

 

[Tranona]

Surely if your current install has though hulls with bends and then the valve, what is the difference to fitting a TD in the same location, understand it does have the issue of additional joints but you already have that. I would install as needed

I think you will find that the bodies of the Trudesign are larger diameter than metal ones and probably create clearance problems with the hull. That was the case with my Bavaria for the heads outlet.

 

[Daverw]

yes that could be the case if the through hull has minimal thread, I found that fitting TD valves although they have bigger bodies, if you remove the handle fully they can often spin ok with the ones I’ve fitted.

 

[lustyd]

Your "best practice"

No, industry best practice and common knowledge. Also documented by TD. You’ve clearly missed the purpose of a seacock if you think there should be plumbing on the outside of it.

You really claim to have broken a metal 90 degree bend with a lever? You must be very strong.

No, I don’t have to be strong. That’s the purpose of levers. You should try one, they’re useful in all sorts of situations where you need mechanical advantage. I also use them to undo nuts that are a bit too tight to undo with just my fingers

 

[KompetentKrew]

What is the reason that Trudesign say that you cannot screw an elbow into the skin fitting and a seacock into the elbow

I think the idea is that the elbow gives leverage that it can be broken under sufficient load.

I have one 90° TrueDesign that I'm happy with and one that I want to redo.

The TruDesign seacocks are quite bulky - they're larger than the brass ones (or bronze?) that were on my boat before, and won't necessarily fit in the same spaces.

 

[lustyd]

I think the idea is that the elbow gives leverage that it can be broken under sufficient load.

I have one 90° TrueDesign that I'm happy with and one that I want to redo.

That and it’s bad practice to have plumbing that can’t be maintained on the seaward side of a seacock. If the bend develops a leak there’s nothing you can do about it. Common sense really. If you’re doing it with metal though there’s no reason not to do it with composite, the insurance company would respond the same for either.