Thought experiment about trip to the Elbe

[AntarcticPilot]

I have relatives of my late wife who live near Hamburg, indeed, one niece lives within a kilometre of the river Kruckau, near Elmshorn. Clearly, a cruise up to the Elbe and then (depth and bridges permitting) up the river Kruckau would be an attractive proposition!

I measured it up roughly on Google Earth, and it's something like 340 nm - about 60 hours at sea. I'd obviously need crew for such a trip; I'd be crossing too many sea-lanes for doing it single-handed to be a reasonable proposition; I may be a rough tough Polar type (?? ?), but staying awake for 60+ hours is well beyond me! The only obvious stop-over would be at Texel, and that's not terribly attractive (for this purpose; not a comment on the desirability of Texel) as it would mean a passage close inshore along the "Riddle of the Sands" waters, which my fin keel is not well suited to. It's also potentially a lee-shore. I think that a reasonable plan would be to head broadly towards North Holland and then to the vicinity of Heligoland before entering the Elbe. There don't seem to be any obvious stopping points that would be suitable for a 1.6m fin keel.

Any comments, suggestions etc.? Local knowledge of the navigability of the Kruckau would be of particular interest (I can't find anything online, but it is obviously open to small craft; there's even a small marina not far from Elmshorn), and of course, any previous experience of such a trip.

I'll emphasize now that this is a thought experiment - I certainly won't try it any time soon!

 

[adamstjohn]

Cant comment on that area but would love to do that journey if you needed crew..

 

[bobgarrett]

When we went to the Baltic and back along that coast we stopped at Lauwersoog, Nordeney and also Heligoland in order to time our entrance to the Elbe with the tide, We draw 1.9m. Yes, that coast is "Riddle of the Sands" but you don't need to stay close in as long as you remain >1M from the TSS. Each of those three ports were interesting to visit. Lauwersoog is a bit inland but we were then using the Dutch canals and that was our entry to them.

 

[Malish]

johnalison has posted on that area (search Texel for instance).

 

[johnalison]

johnalison has posted on that area (search Texel for instance).

You called?

When we did it in '90 in my then Sadler 29 we ended up motoring across and refuelled at Den Helder, where there is a handy little marina and if you are stuck for a day also shopping and a naval museum. Texel is also fine as the main harbour Oudeschild is at the western end. It is also possible to travel inside Texel and Vlieland in deep water with only a shallowish bit approaching Harlingen, which is also a nice place.

Lauwersoog is handy if you want to go inland from there but it involves about seven miles from the sea entrance, though the tide runs strongly there. There is fuel here at the inside marina, as at most of the other harbours. The shallows at the entrance have changed enormously in the last 20 yrs and need up-to-date information, though it is not difficult. Borkum is also a bit of a diversion and I, along with others, prefer Norderney, if a stop is needed in either direction. It is something of a tourist island but I like it a lot and often spent several days there.

Timing the Elbe entrance seems to confuse a lot of people but I have never had a problem. In more recent years the 50+ hours it has taken me from Titchmarsh have made me arrive at exactly the right time, but in the Sadler we even stopped at Wangerooge for a few hours. German buoyage is very reliable, even if you don't have large-scale charts. The currents at the Elbe can be a bit complicated and sometimes seem to go in circles but I have found the diamonds on the Admiralty charts to give the best guidance.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

All useful stuff! Does anyone know anything about the river Kruckau? Looking at Google Earth, it looks like it is navigable as far as Elmshorn, but at what depth? The bridge at the seaward end appears to lift, and if I could get up to Elmshorn (or, ideally, a kilometre or so downstream), I'd be within a kilometre of my niece's place (she lives at Raa-Besenbek, and the Kruckau is just over the main road at the end of her road).

As I say, this is a thought experiment, mainly to work out whether it's a completely crazy idea! By the way, Kruckau should have an umlaut over the first u.

 

[johnalison]

According to Wiki, it is navigable to Elmshorn, but by what it doesn’t say. It looks great fun and I think you should go for it. There is a bridge near the Elbe but it appears to be an opening one, with a yacht harbour just inside.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

According to Wiki, it is navigable to Elmshorn, but by what it doesn’t say. It looks great fun and I think you should go for it. There is a bridge near the Elbe but it appears to be an opening one, with a yacht harbour just inside.

Yes, I saw the Wiki entry, and I found another official looking document in German that seems to say the same. It looks like it's tidal up to Elmshorn, so I'd probably be ok at least at some states of the tide. The yacht harbour just inside is certainly encouraging.

 

[penfold]

There's at least one yacht moored at the marina next to the Käpten-Jürs-Brücke in the google map overhead pic.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

There's at least one yacht moored at the marina next to the Käpten-Jürs-Brücke in the google map overhead pic.
View attachment 121723

Well spotted! And if that's the bridge I think it is, it lifts. I've driven over it.

I just had a look at Google Earth, and it looks very much as if that spot, possibly the quay on the opposite bank and the yacht harbour at the mouth of the river are the only places where a yacht can berth. It's also obvious that the depth is not great in the town. But still, there are possibilities!

 

[PeterWright]

Hi AP.

Johnalison took the direct route in his Sadler, an alternative is to go inshore at Ijmuiden then follow the Staande Mastroute NE to emerge at Delfzijl on the Ems estuary. From there, it's a shortish hop to theElbe estuary, then half as much again up to Hamburg.

The Elbe is navigable at least to Pardubice in the Czech Republic, aslthough you wouldn't want a mast above Hamburg. If you turn off into the Vltava at Mělnik, that is navigable to and beyond Prague.

As you go up the Elbe from Hamburg, passing through Magdeburg and Dresden, you don't encounter any lock after the sea lock in Germany; the first one is at Usti nad Labem, well into the Czech Republic.

Peter.

 

[Gargleblaster]

I've often been to the Baltic single handed, most often via the Kiel Canal which means entering the Elbe as far as Brunsbuttel. I usually start from the Orwell and go straight to Den Helder about a day or so depending on the wind. I will sleep for 15 minutes at a time quite comfortably as I am well practiced. From Den Helder I generally go to Borkum as I like it although it is not the quickest entry to an overnight stop in the Friesians. Then if my timing is right I will go straight up the Elbe if I can get to the outer marker just before the flood and will either go to Cuxhaven or Brunsbuttel and lock straight in. If I don't think I am going to make the flood at the Elbe I will overnight at Helgoland, which in my opinion is a must see. I have done Helgoland back to the East Coast in one run sleeping for 15 mins at a time and staying outside the TSS. The German TSS is a massive fine if you cross it even perpendicular to the flow.

Vlieland is one of the nicest stop I have made but it is generally full and I was only allowed in as they were expecting a storm and didn't like me anchoring outside. Nordeney can also be busy and may require anchoring outside and like Borkum it takesyou a long way off your route to get there. In good weather I have sometimes anchored outside a couple of the islands just to have a sleep, but twice I have been disturbed by the Netherlands Douanes wondering what I was doing.

In my experience there are less ships in the Deep Water Route than there are in the rest of the North Sea. Other than ships the main thing to look out for are the oil platforms.

 

[johnalison]

In later years we did go to the Baltic the slow way, but it takes quite a time and is probably best left for the return journey if a more direct route can be done. Via Ijmuiden, one might then stop at Enkhuizen, Harlingen or Franeker, Dokkum or maybe Lauwersoog. Then Groningen or Delfzyl, Norderney and into the Elbe. With possible delays, that takes about a week. I would prefer to leave that until later, and then if one has time one can stop at interesting places such as Leeuwarden and look around.

Early in the season, places such as Vlieland will be easy to get into, though fine weekends can be busy. Norderney can be busy in season and overnight will probably be rafted on the wall but again, on the way out will not be a problem, From Norderney it is 60m to Cuxhaven, itself an interesting place, though it is easy to carry the tide to Brunsbuttel. Entering the Elbe is fascinating in all weathers, though one wouldn't want to leave in a westerly blow. I have sailed in with a westerly 6-7 with no problems. Helgoland, again, I would leave for my return, planning to stay for a few days, though the best bird life will be earlier in the year, such as May/June. There is a rotary ship area nearby which must be avoided at all costs.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Well spotted! And if that's the bridge I think it is, it lifts. I've driven over it.

I just had a look at Google Earth, and it looks very much as if that spot, possibly the quay on the opposite bank and the yacht harbour at the mouth of the river are the only places where a yacht can berth. It's also obvious that the depth is not great in the town. But still, there are possibilities!

Just to note that I've asked my niece to make enquiries at the yacht harbour about depths and visiting yachts!

 

[Malish]

Just to note that I've asked my niece to make enquiries at the yacht harbour about depths and visiting yachts!

suspect they speak better English than we do

 

[AntarcticPilot]

suspect they speak better English than we do

My niece probably does - as well as Cantonese and German, all of which she is completely fluent in!

 

[johnalison]

I hate polyglots. Pure jealousy, I know.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I hate polyglots. Pure jealousy, I know.

I assure you that my own linguistic skills are pretty feeble. French and some Latin and Greek were hammered into me at school, but I was no better than a mediocre student of any (I liked Latin and Greek but was no good at them!). Despite that, I regard Latin as one of the most useful subjects I studied - it means that I can communicate at some level in most European countries. I have failed utterly to gain more than a few words of my late wife's language

 

[Laminar Flow]

2018, we sailed from Holland (Friesland) to the Baltic and back. Sailing up the outside you need to be aware that the Zeegatts between the Friesian Islands have strong tidal streams and in wind over tide situations can be rather formidable (polite version) and any harbour will be on the inside. For peace of mind I recommend the standing mast route up to Delfzeil. We ended up doing that after going from Harlingen to Terschelling, then over the Watt (draft 1.34m) to the Zeegatt between Terschelling and Ameland where we anchored for the night. By morning it was blowing some 40kts and when we went up to have a look-see the sea state in the passage was psychotic with white water. We chose the inshore route instead, via Lauwersoog, Groningen and on to Delfzeil. It makes good sense to enter the inland route at Ijmuiden which on it's own and after leaving Amsterdam, is pleasant enough. Inside from Ijmuiden to Delfzeil takes about 4days, 5 if the locks and bridges don't line up, shame to rush it, really.
From there we sailed to Norderney. Consult the Harbour master there for the best time of departure to make the flood tide into the Elbe. They are very helpful, though for us it meant leaving at two in the morning and navigating the channel out of Norderney was not all that easy or straight forward in the dark. Our arrival at the mouth of the Elbe, however, was spot on. Staying outside of the shipping lanes was no problem. Give yourself a break at Cuxhaven, its a fair stretch from Norderney.

Sadly, Latin will not get you very far in Germany, other than with the clergy, the Catholic brand and the North is traditionally Protestant, good thing that pretty much all the younger generations speak English.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Sadly, Latin will not get you very far in Germany, other than with the clergy, the Catholic brand and the North is traditionally Protestant, good thing that pretty much all the younger generations speak English.

No, but English has enough in common with germanic languages to get you a long way. And you'd be surprised how much Latin there is in modern German! But you're quite right - many people have at least some English, and I have enough German for common politeness. Just a minor point; it's not unlikely that even a protestant member of the clergy could at least follow Latin or Greek - those two plus Hebrew are important for studying the Bible. I didn't study them for that reason (being a lay minister came later) but it's very handy that I did!

BTW, while I'm very interested in all the possible routes through the Dutch Canals, and warnings about the Frisian Islands, it would be my intention to go direct from UK to the Elbe - I presume I'd have to complete entry formalities somewhere like Brunsbuttel; the chances of doing it at the river Kruckau seem pretty slim! The point would be to visit relatives, not to go to the Baltic or other cruising grounds. If I were heading for Scandinavia, it would be Norway that would interest me; I have had many professional connections there - the main thing that would put me off is the extortionate cost of living there! My main interest in the Frisian islands would be to stay well away from them for the reasons you mention!