This if "liferaft"

A1Sailor said:
Folk used to moan about the over-regulation of marine VHF/DSC, but stories like that suggest that things are too lax these days.
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So what exactly has changed? Station licenses have got simpler, but that's not relevant to courses and skills. Did Ofcom or its predecessors ever board boats looking for operators' tickets?

A1Sailor said:
Your dad is obviously perfectly content using a radio that he isn't fully conversent with!
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True, but he's not exactly alone. Practically every time DSC is mentioned here we get a raft of old farts proudly telling us that they turn their radio off whenever it beeps, can't read the screen because they've mislaid their bifocals, and have never bothered to find out how to work it because it's all a damn silly idea anyway.

Pete
 
prv said:
So what exactly has changed? Station licenses have got simpler, but that's not relevant to courses and skills. Did Ofcom or its predecessors ever board boats looking for operators' tickets?

True, but he's not exactly alone. Practically every time DSC is mentioned here we get a raft of old farts proudly telling us that they turn their radio off whenever it beeps, can't read the screen because they've mislaid their bifocals, and have never bothered to find out how to work it because it's all a damn silly idea anyway.

Pete
Click to expand...

In "the good old days" it wasn't possible to get a licence without doing the appropriate course. And yes - the inspectors used to go round, principally in marinas, looking for vessels which didn't have a licence on display. It is now possible, as your Dad has proven, to operate a marine VHF/DSC set without an appropriate licence.

Signed - a 52 year old fart.

EDIT:
OK - without an appropriately issued licence
 
A1Sailor said:
In "the good old days" it wasn't possible to get a licence without doing the appropriate course. And yes - the inspectors used to go round, principally in marinas, looking for vessels which didn't have a licence on display.
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But the round disk you used to stick in the window was the station license, not the operator's certificate. He's got (the modern equivalent of) that.

Pete
 
prv said:
But the round disk you used to stick in the window was the station license, not the operator's certificate. He's got (the modern equivalent of) that.

Pete
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OK - but previously, you had to have passed the VHF +/- DSC "exam" to get a licence. Now it appears you don't need to - unless I have misunderstood you?
 
A1Sailor said:
OK - but previously, you had to have passed the VHF +/- DSC "exam" to get a licence. Now it appears you don't need to - unless I have misunderstood you?
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I don't think you've misunderstood me, I think you've misunderstood the licensing system you're so keen on :)

To operate a marine VHF, international radio protocols say you need three things:

- Station license
- Operator's certificate of competence
- Authority to operate

The station license was the disk in the window, which you had to renew periodically and pay a fee. This has been replaced with a free online system, in which you merely need to check every ten years that your details haven't changed. They certainly don't require any proof of competence for this one now; I haven't heard any suggestion that they ever did although my boat ownership has all been under the newer regime. My dad has this one, because we share the boat and I make sure the station is properly licensed.

The operator's certificate is the one you need to do the course (or at least the exam) for. The syllabus has changed to include DSC (and mention of SARTs and EPIRBs etc) but otherwise the basic process is the same as it ever was. My dad doesn't have one of these, and nor does anyone else on the boat when he's sailing.

The authority to operate is something that presumably matters more in other countries; in the UK they just print it on the back of the operator's certificate so if you have one you have the other, and we generally ignore it.



Your inspectors in days of yore were presumably checking for station licenses. This wouldn't have any effect on my dad as the boat has one.

Pete
 
ninky said:
AFAIK you do need a licence to operate a VHF, unless it's an emergency - and no, calling the marina for a spot doesn't count as an 'emergency' :).
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You can try telling my dad that, but he won't listen to you :)

It's funny, because he's pedantically correct about regulations and good practice when he flies, but on the water he's distinctly hazy about colregs and considers himself above the law on radios.

Pete
 
A1Sailor said:
Sorry. I meant "get away with", not "permitted to"...
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What I'm trying to say is that nothing has changed on that front since "the good old days" you alluded to in post 22. You've always needed to do an exam to get an operator's certificate, you still do. The certificate has always been required by law, and still is. And there has never (as far as I know) been a deliberate programme of checking those certificates - the officials in marinas are a red herring, because they were checking for an entirely different piece of paper.

You're trying to draw a distinction between "then" and "now" which simply doesn't exist. Nothing's changed.

Pete
 
The examples given in post 5 and in the link in post 15 are both wrong. The definitive (ITU) MAYDAY format is:
32.13C § 9B 1) The distress call sent on the frequency 156.8 MHz (VHF channel 16)
shall be given in the following form:
– the distress signal MAYDAY, spoken three times;
– the words THIS IS;
– the name of the vessel in distress, spoken three times;
– the call sign or other identification;
– the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC). (WRC-07)
32.13D 2) The distress message which follows the distress call should be given in
the following form:
– the distress signal MAYDAY;
– the name of the vessel in distress;
– the call sign or other identification;
– the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC);
– the position, given as the latitude and longitude, or if the latitude and
longitude are not known or if time is insufficient, in relation to a known
geographical location;
– the nature of the distress;
– the kind of assistance required;
– any other useful information. (WRC-07)
 
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The examples given in post 5 and in the link in post 15 are both wrong. The definitive (ITU) MAYDAY format is:
32.13C § 9B 1) The distress call sent on the frequency 156.8 MHz (VHF channel 16)
shall be given in the following form:
– the distress signal MAYDAY, spoken three times;
– the words THIS IS;
– the name of the vessel in distress, spoken three times;
– the call sign or other identification;
– the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC). (WRC-07)
32.13D 2) The distress message which follows the distress call should be given in
the following form:
– the distress signal MAYDAY;
– the name of the vessel in distress;
– the call sign or other identification;
glug glug glug...
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with any luck the coastguard will be able to work out the location by doing a fix from their masts; if not DSC.
 
prv said:
What I'm trying to say is that nothing has changed on that front since "the good old days" you alluded to in post 22. You've always needed to do an exam to get an operator's certificate, you still do. The certificate has always been required by law, and still is. And there has never (as far as I know) been a deliberate programme of checking those certificates - the officials in marinas are a red herring, because they were checking for an entirely different piece of paper.

You're trying to draw a distinction between "then" and "now" which simply doesn't exist. Nothing's changed.

Pete
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I am aware that the roving inspectors were checking ship radio licences, not operators' certificates.
Thanks.
 
A1Sailor said:
[glug glug glug]

with any luck the coastguard will be able to work out the location by doing a fix from their masts; if not DSC.
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:)

Yep, format definitely designed by radio geeks rather than sailors. I guess on the bridge of a bulk carrier it probably works well enough.

The Coastguard can't DF your position any more, though. They stopped maintaining the kit in order to save money. There may still be some of it operational, but when it breaks down it's gone. Then they have to call a lifeboat to do any direction-finding work.

Maybe the RNLI should set up DF receivers on top of their boathouses? They're more numerous than Coastguard sites, I think, so they could do better fixes. It would save calling out a whole crew for situations when DF is useful but it's not a life-threatening emergency (stuck pressels, etc). And the charity certainly seems to have plenty of cash available to buy the gear. They could use the same kit as they have in the boats, and use it for shore training of operators too.

Pete
 
A1Sailor said:
I am aware that the roving inspectors were checking ship radio licences, not operators' certificates.
Click to expand...

So why mention them in response to "Did Ofcom or its predecessors ever board boats looking for operators' tickets?" ?

And say

"It is now possible [...] to operate a marine VHF/DSC set without an appropriate licence." (my emphasis)

when it is no more or less possible than it was twenty years ago?

Pete
 
prv said:
:)

Yep, format definitely designed by radio geeks rather than sailors. I guess on the bridge of a bulk carrier it probably works well enough.

The Coastguard can't DF your position any more, though. They stopped maintaining the kit in order to save money. There may still be some of it operational, but when it breaks down it's gone. Then they have to call a lifeboat to do any direction-finding work.

Maybe the RNLI should set up DF receivers on top of their boathouses? They're more numerous than Coastguard sites, I think, so they could do better fixes. It would save calling out a whole crew for situations when DF is useful but it's not a life-threatening emergency (stuck pressels, etc). And the charity certainly seems to have plenty of cash available to buy the gear. They could use the same kit as they have in the boats, and use it for shore training of operators too.

Pete
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DFing a VHF signal generally needs a long continuous transmission, might as well be telling them where you are in that time.
The shorebased stations would need clear sight of the sea. Where you have antennas on various headlands, they need to be networked together effectively.
Homing in by charging around at 30knots is technically easier.
 
Looking at the websites of a few schools offering the DSC course, none has the Distress call right, and even the 2002 edition of the RYA DSC manual wasn't correct (there is a 2012 edition but I haven't got one). However, the RYA has it correct, including good examples of MAYDAY RELAY and PAN PAN, at:
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ased/RYA SRC assessors conf presentations.pdf
Yes, all a bit radio geeky but it's an international standard that works for a small leisure boat on coastal waters on VHF and a large ship on the ocean on HF (a large ship might be the nearest to respond to a small boat, even just off the coast, it isn't just HMCG that receives them). The exact order of items, such as callsign and then MMSI, might not seem important except when the receiving station is trying to copy the radio call onto a form or computer screen proforma. Having said that, any sort of call will eventually summon help, even, as I heard once, a panicky untrained voice just shouting: "Help, Help". The RYA-recognized schools should get their teaching right; it seems that some of them don't, as perhaps should at least one boating magazine.
 
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