Third engine

ianc1200

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I apologise as I've asked too many questions lately, and do realise most will feel this is sacrilege to even think about this, but just playing with an idea.... I've bought an Aquastar 38 with twin Cummins 250hp. The boat cruises really nicely at 12-13 knots, and probably a lot more than this. But it idles in gear at about 7.5 knots, and on one engine 4.5 knots. It's not happy idling for long periods, I've been told the Nippondenso EP9 fuel pumps are industrial but don't like to idle. I'm based in NE Essex, and the plans are to take her to the Upper Thames, Broads, and eventually France/Holland Belgium etc. Some of the canals I'd like to visit (eg the Canal de la Marne au Rhin) you can barely go a walking pace, and are very weedy. The boat has not got a generator, and there's plenty of room between the two Cummins for a third small engine. So my fantasy - which I'm sure will never happen - is why not put a third engine between the two Cummins, keel cooled, even perhaps a folding prop, so it could be used for both propulsion on slow weedy canals and a generator. I'd not have a third rudder - the boat has two very small rudders but steers more effectively, certainly close handling, by throttle control, but would then have to have bow and stern thrusters. My question is not whether this is a stupid idea, or I've bought the wrong boat, but how much hp would I need to push the boat along at say 4 knots, plus stopping power at that speed. We do have two other boats - a wooden estuary cruiser, about 5.5 tons dead weight, 30' long, which has a Yanmar 1GM 10hp wing engine and can get 5 knots in still water. Our 26' 1910 gaff cutter, about 3.5 tons, with a 20hp Beta, gives us about 6 knots. So I'm thinking, a 38' semi displacement, much wider and 9.5 tons, could be OK with a similar Beta 20.
 

wombat88

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Some of the wartime MTBs had a third engine fitted between the two Packard Merlins. I believe it was normally a Ford V8.

This was to be used when close in to an enemy shore in order to be as silent as possible.
 

jakew009

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You could get a Epropulsion 6.0 pod drive that just bolts on the bottom of the hull like a sail drive for a couple of grand.

Combine it with a couple of lifepo4 batteries and a generator and you are away.

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ianc1200

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You could get a Epropulsion 6.0 pod drive that just bolts on the bottom of the hull like a sail drive for a couple of grand.

Combine it with a couple of lifepo4 batteries and a generator and you are away.

Really neat idea, but unless available with a bit more power (I'm reading max 9.9hp) would be very underpowered.
 

dunedin

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Really neat idea, but unless available with a bit more power (I'm reading max 9.9hp) would be very underpowered.
6kW masses of power as a “third motor” for a 38 footer on inland waters. Suspect will barely need half that to maintain 5 knots when up to speed. One horse - or even one barge wife! - used to pull a much heavier laden barge.
Clearly would struggle bashing into the tide and strong wind on tidal Thames - but OP says has 250hp x 2 available if more grunt needed for such conditions.
PS. but a saildrive type is probably not ideal for canals if a shaft drive option can be fitted.
 

jakew009

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Really neat idea, but unless available with a bit more power (I'm reading max 9.9hp) would be very underpowered.

99% of the time it would be plenty, and on the few occasions it’s not, just start the main engines.

The cost will go up dramatically as the motor gets bigger (due to more complicated batteries / wiring) for so little gain.
 

Alicatt

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I apologise as I've asked too many questions lately, and do realise most will feel this is sacrilege to even think about this, but just playing with an idea.... I've bought an Aquastar 38 with twin Cummins 250hp. The boat cruises really nicely at 12-13 knots, and probably a lot more than this. But it idles in gear at about 7.5 knots, and on one engine 4.5 knots. It's not happy idling for long periods, I've been told the Nippondenso EP9 fuel pumps are industrial but don't like to idle. I'm based in NE Essex, and the plans are to take her to the Upper Thames, Broads, and eventually France/Holland Belgium etc. Some of the canals I'd like to visit (eg the Canal de la Marne au Rhin) you can barely go a walking pace, and are very weedy. The boat has not got a generator, and there's plenty of room between the two Cummins for a third small engine. So my fantasy - which I'm sure will never happen - is why not put a third engine between the two Cummins, keel cooled, even perhaps a folding prop, so it could be used for both propulsion on slow weedy canals and a generator. I'd not have a third rudder - the boat has two very small rudders but steers more effectively, certainly close handling, by throttle control, but would then have to have bow and stern thrusters. My question is not whether this is a stupid idea, or I've bought the wrong boat, but how much hp would I need to push the boat along at say 4 knots, plus stopping power at that speed. We do have two other boats - a wooden estuary cruiser, about 5.5 tons dead weight, 30' long, which has a Yanmar 1GM 10hp wing engine and can get 5 knots in still water. Our 26' 1910 gaff cutter, about 3.5 tons, with a 20hp Beta, gives us about 6 knots. So I'm thinking, a 38' semi displacement, much wider and 9.5 tons, could be OK with a similar Beta 20.
I have an Ocean 37 with twin Perkins HT6.354M 145hp engines which I use on the Dutch and Belgian canals. The difference between 1 engine and 2 engines driving the boat is about 1km/h with one engine giving 7.4km/h and 2 engines giving 8.3km/h at idle which is fine for most canals where the speed limit is 12km/h where I am doing about 900rpm, 1100rpm takes us up to about 15km/h which is fine for the rivers like the Maas. Our canal to Beverlo where we are berthed has an 8km/h limit and 5km/h in various sections.

At idle the Perkins are producing around 40hp each which is still a lot for a 10 tonne 37ft boat wanting to go slow.

Just now there are a lot of works going on the canals here, with banks being re-piled and new waterways being dug, going past those works they have a "no wake" or maximum 5km/h speed limits on them which on a boat like mine is a bit of a pain, in and out of gear for many km while you transit the zones.

Having a lower powered electric engine to sail on the lower speed canals sounds like a nice idea :)
 
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