The sublime and the ridiculous - boatshow

[Gary Fox]

Mrs Morris insists we do the same! If we didn't hang onto our boats for years, I would be taking out shares in Jabsco toilets.

I like the 60-yr old mahogany seat of my Blakes; having been used an estimated 100,000 times, by persons unknown and known, it has acquired a deep shine and colour. I have a spare but doubt it will ever be needed..

 

[john_morris_uk]

I like the 60-yr old mahogany seat of my Blakes; having been used an estimated 100,000 times, it has acquired a deep shine and colour. I have a spare but doubt it will ever be needed..

I might get away with that one - but I suspect there may be questions about whether I could revarnish it?

 

[Zing]

Indeed, there are many new boats that have all these things but they tend to be exotic, expensive, often highly strung and repay having a large and skilled crew. How many people here have one of the newer French very fast cruisers? How many could actually sail one to great effect or put up with the accommodations below deck?

Most people's modern cruising boat is knocked up out of GRP, balsa, plywood, stainless steel and Formica, as they were in times of yore. It has no carbon fibre laminate, no carbon fibre mast, no common rail engine, no air conditioning. It is not capable of any outstanding speeds. It has no great ultimate stability a large, heavy hull, high wetted area, large windage and low ballast; that's your modern cruising boat.

They are excellent at what they do, I love a quarter cabin, but lets not get giddy.

Fair point. A lot of advantages cost too much, but you are downplaying a lot of what you can have very cheaply or for free, such as modern improved hull and foil design. Better structural design and the use of cored laminates to improve strength and reduce weight. Modern production techniques to give what amounts to a lot of boat for the money. All are in 'cheap' modern designs.

 

[doug748]

Went to SIBS today for the first time for maybe 10 years. Rather than drive down in one trip, we broke our journey and stayed overnight at a Travelodge north of Salisbury. Cost of a bed for the night for the two of us was just a bit above £40. The room was spoptlessly clean, the bed comfortable and the boise levels low - excellent value. Went out to Spoons for something to eat, it being a Monday all the restaurants locally were closed. For less than £20 we had a two course meal for two with drinks - food was quick, tasty and well seved. Maybe pub grub rather than haute cuisine but again excellent value.
The boats on offer at the show were a different matter. For a start there wer only 3 sailboats below 30ft and few in the 30/35ft which correspong to most UK matina berths. The prices were stupid - a Bendytoy 310 was £130k !! A 29ft mobo we looked at was £300k. Yet the show was full of boats in the 50ft / 60 ft size range costing ??>
Where is the typical British sailing boat owner going to get his 30ft cruiser from in future, let alone the large numbers I see at my club sailing boats below that size. Its a bit like the bloat and silly prices that have happened to cars post PFPs. Is that what has happened to boats - people are buying 60ft Hanse at maybe £750k on the never never?

These people will do you a very nice old pharts boat 28 or 31 ft. Always thought they looked a grand thing

Best viewed as a boat comfy for two, flat bottom to dry out in the Scillies, Brittany or Wales, lots of head and elbow room:

North Cape 31C – NAZ-schepen




.

 

[geem]

I’m not talking about impractical features or the merits of heavy cruisers in a gale, which I agree is hard to beat. There are a heap of desirable modern innovations I have in mind. Modern hull shapes give wide beam, high stability, lower ballast, longer waterline and lower wetted area all to give dramatically better performance, particularly at the lower wind speeds and upwind, yet they retain good motion comfort when needed. Modern materials such as pre-preg or carbon or even e-glass sandwich constructions give significant up to dramatic weight reductions with improved stiffness and strength. For the internal construction, foam cored or carbon laminates are used instead of heaps of plywood saving tons of performance and stability robbing weight. Keel foil designs have improved, ditto rudders, particularly with the widespread use of twin rudders.The common use of carbon spars at what is now affordable cost increments over alu, dropping the centre of gravity, improving stability and reducing pitching motion. Modern quiet, efficient common rail motors, hugely superior modern equipment such as autopilots, more efficient, quieter air con etc and the list goes on and on.

Are all these things you mention benefits?
Common rail engines? Twin rudders?
You assume that those with old boats have not updates autopilots. I am sure most have.
E glass sandwich construction has been around for ever. My own boat had this modern construction back in 1980. Yes waterlines have lengthen, something I think would be good to have, but not if it comes with a flat forefoot that slams to windward. We pitch. No doubt about it.
As for carbon masts, they aren't standard fit on Ben,Jen, Bavs. They come at a price, as does the inmast reefing so often seen on modern boats. I am sure it makes life easy but not when you want to power up wind in a blow. You can beat slab reefing.
If you dig back in the YBW archives you will be able to find the account of Halcyon delivering a Southerly 42 across Biscay in a blow. The thread started with somebody asking what they were like for serious cruising. All the normal armchair advocated of modern boat design gave it a thumbs up. Halcyon gave an actual account of a wide stern, twin rudder boat in a blow in Biscay. It wasn't pretty.
If you think modern design is about beautiful interiors, great cabin space, swim platforms and G&Ts then yes, they are great for that. If you actually want to sail long distance buy a Kracken, Bowman or something from the past like Oyster, Amel, HR, Trintella, Tartan, Swan, Tayana. Don't mistake these boats for the small sparsely appointed boats that dominated the UK and European market of yesteryear. They are in a different league and in their day they cost a fortune. As second hand boats at an affordable price they are a genuine alternative to a modern production boat if you want to sail long distance. But then again I am biased ?

 

[Grey Goose]

I am (trying) to buy a Tesla for exactly the same reason. I would rather my dog chew my arm off than take a car to a French mechanic for service

In my experience French mechanics are very good.

 

[Tranona]

Fair point. A lot of advantages cost too much, but you are downplaying a lot of what you can have very cheaply or for free, such as modern improved hull and foil design. Better structural design and the use of cored laminates to improve strength and reduce weight. Modern production techniques to give what amounts to a lot of boat for the money. All are in 'cheap' modern designs.

Agree with the general thrust of the argument, but not necessarily the last sentence. See post#42. The boats on the market today are no longer "cheap" in comparison with the past. we have just been through a 20 year period of relative price stability where the cost of many manufactured consumer goods has fallen in real terms. That stopped a couple of years ago but has been masked by the pandemic which has flattened activity in discretionary purchases such as boats. Material prices, notably oil based have been rising and the impact is flowing through into prices now. More than one exhibitor at the show warned of price increases in the offing adding to the 30%+ increases over the last 5 years.

As the OP says it was a shock to see the paucity of smaller (sailing) boats on display and the high prices of those that were. Even moving production to low labour cost countries (the Beneteau 30.1 is made in Poland) cannot keep prices down. Looks like this sector of the market will slowly drift away as it is near impossible to make any money with the volumes available now.

 

[dgadee]

100% this. Modern sailors take their partners with them. I got sign off based on (bigger than) kingsize bed, WiFi, hot showers, 4 ring stove, grill and oven, central heating and a clean bilge. It sails very well too, but she didn't care about that.

You are so right. If you don't provide the necessities you sail alone. Mind you, glad mine isn't so demanding as yours.

 

[lustyd]

You are so right. If you don't provide the necessities you sail alone. Mind you, glad mine isn't so demanding as yours.

Ok I’ll admit that some of these were my requirements having sailed a 20 footer for 10 years ?

 

[Parabordi]

I used to think that, but I now do want a new boat, so I can answer your question. Firstly when many people get to a certain point in life they realise they have been too frugal and are in danger of having money and not spending it. That is the biggest waste of money there is. A mistake to rectify fast. Secondly, after decades of patching up second hand boats and pissing one’s life away spannering, you realise you have been stupid. Better to get something new that doesn’t break so much, which is a happy realisation, because it supports the first point. The sensible conclusion of all this is to buy new.

But so many new boats are just plain ugly...

 

[lustyd]

But so many new boats are just plain ugly...

Same with old boats. At least the new ones are clean though ?

 

[Zing]

Are all these things you mention benefits?
Common rail engines? Twin rudders?
You assume that those with old boats have not updates autopilots. I am sure most have.
E glass sandwich construction has been around for ever. My own boat had this modern construction back in 1980. Yes waterlines have lengthen, something I think would be good to have, but not if it comes with a flat forefoot that slams to windward. We pitch. No doubt about it.
As for carbon masts, they aren't standard fit on Ben,Jen, Bavs. They come at a price, as does the inmast reefing so often seen on modern boats. I am sure it makes life easy but not when you want to power up wind in a blow. You can beat slab reefing.
If you dig back in the YBW archives you will be able to find the account of Halcyon delivering a Southerly 42 across Biscay in a blow. The thread started with somebody asking what they were like for serious cruising. All the normal armchair advocated of modern boat design gave it a thumbs up. Halcyon gave an actual account of a wide stern, twin rudder boat in a blow in Biscay. It wasn't pretty.
If you think modern design is about beautiful interiors, great cabin space, swim platforms and G&Ts then yes, they are great for that. If you actually want to sail long distance buy a Kracken, Bowman or something from the past like Oyster, Amel, HR, Trintella, Tartan, Swan, Tayana. Don't mistake these boats for the small sparsely appointed boats that dominated the UK and European market of yesteryear. They are in a different league and in their day they cost a fortune. As second hand boats at an affordable price they are a genuine alternative to a modern production boat if you want to sail long distance. But then again I am biased ?

Each to their own... Fred Flintstone seemed happy too with his stone beach buggy. Technology did move on though.

Clearly people upgrade autopilots and other electronics on old boats. They don't usually do the lot, including motor/gearbox/quadrants. Regarding glass, I actually meant s-glass not E. (edited now), which is a big advance on standard glass. Yes, carbon is rarely standard, but especially with more expensive boats, my point was that the proportional upgrade cost is now attractive. Also, you do get carbon in widespread use now in high stress areas. Slab vs in-mast is a different debate. I wasn't referring to that, but I agree with your point.

Actually modern hull shapes are not just fat bottomed. It is more a rectangle with a point. See the latest from HR. One of your recommended marques. All the big conservative yards are going this way and think it has considerable merit. The Italians and Finns are doing more extreme versions:



I

 

[geem]

Each to their own... Fred Flintstone seemed happy too with his stone beach buggy. Technology did move on though.

Clearly people upgrade autopilots and other electronics on old boats. They don't usually do the lot, including motor/gearbox/quadrants. Regarding glass, I actually meant s-glass not E. (edited now), which is a big advance on standard glass. Yes, carbon is rarely standard, but especially with more expensive boats, my point was that the proportional upgrade cost is now attractive. Clearly it will be more so, the more expensive the boat. Also, you do get carbon in widespread use now in high stress areas. Slab vs in-mast is a different debate. I wasn't referring to that, but I agree with your point.

Actually modern hull shapes are not just fat bottomed. It is more a rectangle with a point. See the latest from HR. One of your recommended marques. All the big conservative yards are going this way and think it has considerable merit. The Italians and Finns are doing more extreme versions:

View attachment 122511

I

My tender is a nesting hard dinghy. Carbon, E glass and Airex core. Built 28 years ago by my American boat builder friend. Some of the exotic stuff has been around a while.
With regard to HR, I think their only way to survive is to adopt what the French builders are doing. The market for blue water cruisers is limited. The likes of big Discovery yachts seem to have that market covered. Anything in the 40ft range these days is considered a coastal sailor. When we are in the Caribbean our 44ft boat is a considered small.
I can see the attraction of modern designs for coastal sailing or Med sailing. A different animal is required for ocean sailing in my opinion. But rash to their own

 

[Poignard]

Is he from Tunbridge Wells?

For the benefit of our younger readers who may not have heard of "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells":

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells - Wikipedia

 

[Bouba]

In my experience French mechanics are very good.

Unfortunately the dealerships don’t work on the principle of customer care you are there at their convenience and no matter how wrong the diagnosis it’s never their fault and you pay through the nose (collecting your money is the only efficient part of the organization). A car that needs no maintenance is like honeyed gold to me

 

[Poignard]

Unfortunately the dealerships don’t work on the principle of customer care you are there at their convenience and no matter how wrong the diagnosis it’s never their fault and you pay through the nose (collecting your money is the only efficient part of the organization). A car that needs no maintenance is like honeyed gold to me

They certainly know how to charge!

 

[dgadee]

For the benefit of our younger readers who may not have heard of "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells":

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells - Wikipedia

Have you contributed to Wikipedia's call for financial support?

 

[westernman]

Unfortunately the dealerships don’t work on the principle of customer care you are there at their convenience and no matter how wrong the diagnosis it’s never their fault and you pay through the nose (collecting your money is the only efficient part of the organization). A car that needs no maintenance is like honeyed gold to me

Then get a Hyundai. Only irregular maintenance item on 12 years was a new battery.

 

[Poignard]

Have you contributed to Wikipedia's call for financial support?

No. Have you? Does anybody?

 

[Bouba]

Then get a Hyundai. Only irregular maintenance item on 12 years was a new battery.

We had one, we loved it but, unfortunately, it drowned. It was all so sad?