The small ICE outboard.

[Kelpie]

I wonder if people who complain about inflatables not being able to be rowed have the wrong boat (not an air floor with V) or the wrong technique?

If an inflatable exists which is good to row, I'm yet to see it. The general problems are poor thwart position, weak rowlocks, very short oars, blunt bow, draggy transom, and rowlocks not far enough outboard.

I think it's very hard to create an inflatable with good strong rowlocks positioned in the right place, and with a hull shape with rocker.

Many of them don't even try. Most of the time when I see an inflatable being human-powered, it's done using the oars as paddles, like a Canadian canoe.

 

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

I thought it was cheeky for one of the electric outboard retailers (in dinghy alley) to have a petrol outboard comparison set up in a tank of very dirty water. Talk about setting consumer expectations. They didn't show the filth surrounding lithium production

Maybe you should consider: the filth around oil extraction, the local polution when use, the noise, the carbon footprint of production, refining, distribution. Etc.
Electric is not perfect, but in the round it is a massive step in the right direction

 

[James_Calvert]

If an inflatable exists which is good to row, I'm yet to see it. The general problems are poor thwart position, weak rowlocks, very short oars, blunt bow, draggy transom, and rowlocks not far enough outboard.

Ever tried a Tinker Tramp? Compares well against any 9 ft hard dinghies. I would imagine a Tinker Traveller is quite good against 12 foot ones, not that I've ever had one of those.

 

[Boathook]

If an inflatable exists which is good to row, I'm yet to see it. The general problems are poor thwart position, weak rowlocks, very short oars, blunt bow, draggy transom, and rowlocks not far enough outboard.

I think it's very hard to create an inflatable with good strong rowlocks positioned in the right place, and with a hull shape with rocker.

Many of them don't even try. Most of the time when I see an inflatable being human-powered, it's done using the oars as paddles, like a Canadian canoe.

I've got a tinker foldaway. Rows reasonably well but it does need to be level which is difficult with only 2 on board. The rowlocks could be better and I am considering after 20 plus years ownership to get longer oars but they will need to ones that can be split in half so that they fit in the bottom of the dinghy and the locker

 

[dunedin]

If an inflatable exists which is good to row, I'm yet to see it. The general problems are poor thwart position, weak rowlocks, very short oars, blunt bow, draggy transom, and rowlocks not far enough outboard.

I think it's very hard to create an inflatable with good strong rowlocks positioned in the right place, and with a hull shape with rocker.

Many of them don't even try. Most of the time when I see an inflatable being human-powered, it's done using the oars as paddles, like a Canadian canoe.

Each to their own, but as I said, I wonder if people who grumble about inflatables have bought the wrong boats.
See loads of people rowing inflatables all over Scotland, and often not just to go ashore but to row for fun to explore the area.

Our cheap tender has an adjustable thwart that can be slip back and forward, and never had issues with rowlocks strength on this or previous boats. Current pin ones mean can’t feather oars, but not an issue as just adjust rowing technique slightly.

 

[Plum]

If an inflatable exists which is good to row, I'm yet to see it. The general problems are poor thwart position, weak rowlocks, very short oars, blunt bow, draggy transom, and rowlocks not far enough outboard.

I think it's very hard to create an inflatable with good strong rowlocks positioned in the right place, and with a hull shape with rocker.

Many of them don't even try. Most of the time when I see an inflatable being human-powered, it's done using the oars as paddles, like a Canadian canoe.

My 2.3m round-tail inflatable is good to row after I replaced the oars with longer wooden ones. Not as good as a rigid tender, of course, but I am happy with it.

 

[Mark-1]

Maybe you should consider: the filth around oil extraction, the local polution when use, the noise, the carbon footprint of production, refining, distribution. Etc.
Electric is not perfect, but in the round it is a massive step in the right direction

By that logic rowing beats Electric hands down. Rowing may not be perfect, but in the round, it is a massive step in the right direction.

 

[Mark-1]

Ever tried a Tinker Tramp? Compares well against any 9 ft hard dinghies. I would imagine a Tinker Traveller is quite good against 12 foot ones, not that I've ever had one of those.

Weird they stopped making the Tinker Tramp, it ticked a lot of boxes.

 

[B27]

Weird they stopped making the Tinker Tramp, it ticked a lot of boxes.

For the rather small number of people who put their credit cards on the line for it.
That is the problem, most people are happy with a cheaper flubber.

 

[Kelpie]

My 2.3m round-tail inflatable is good to row after I replaced the oars with longer wooden ones. Not as good as a rigid tender, of course, but I am happy with it.

Possibly similar to a Redcrest. Mine rows acceptably with 6ft oars.

 

[Alfie168]

I seized a Suzuki, had an MZ which refused to start, a Gilera which was only happy in the rain and a Benelli which ate its big ends. A Maico tried to kill me.

They're made out of holes. What can possibly go wrong?

I worked in a motorcycle dealership for a while. Can't say I ever saw a Gilera, Benelli or Maico. We were part of a group with Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha franchises. We took some absolute crap in as trade ins though and not that many were resold by us. We shifted them into the trade.
I have to say we had very little trouble with "The big three", but they were mostly new or newish. I've never experienced an engine seizure, but did have a blow out that locked a rear wheel on a Suzuki T200 Invader, happily it all came to a halt OK.

 

[thinwater]

Agree. Electric's better in every way to ICE, except range. (...and cost?) But range is critical. If you need range or might ever need range there's no substitute. (Unfortunately.)

Also agree re oars. If I was that certain I'd never need to stretch the legs of an OB, human power is clean, quiet and good for me.

I'm am jealous of the (rightly) smug people who can manage with an Electric outboard/car, though.

Also weight, if range is figured in. There is a reason electric cars weight 700-1500 pounds more than IC. And the cost gets more out of line the more range is addressed.

For the foreseable future, elelctric boats are going to be a niche thing (day sailing), though it is a large niche.

 

[Kelpie]

electric cars weight 700-1500 pounds more than IC.

From what I've read, it's about 18% greater weight for comparable vehicles in small/medium sizes, but can rise to as much as 35% for big SUVs.

 

[B27]

Also weight, if range is figured in. There is a reason electric cars weight 700-1500 pounds more than IC. And the cost gets more out of line the more range is addressed.

For the foreseable future, elelctric boats are going to be a niche thing (day sailing), though it is a large niche.

My 2HP s stroke yamaha weighs about 12kg with a full tank. The 4 stroke Mariner 18kg.
12V trolling 60lb thrust motor weighs about 10kg with no battery. 50Ah LiFePO4 about 6kg.
Tests (which may be unscientific) suggest the petrol outboards will have about 80 or 90lb of thrust.
Whether you trust a cheap trolling motor from ebay to actually deliver its claimed thrust might be another question.

It's easy to measure 'bollard pull', but less easy to measure thrust at 3 knots, ISTM most small outboards are not fitted with props for optimum bollard pull, they are pitched to push a light boat at 8 or 10 knots? I've had small outboards which won't give full RPM if the boat's not moving. Particularly 2 strokes which can lack torque at low RPM.

 

[Mark-1]

Also weight, if range is figured in. There is a reason electric cars weight 700-1500 pounds more than IC. And the cost gets more out of line the more range is addressed.

For the foreseable future, elelctric boats are going to be a niche thing (day sailing), though it is a large niche.

Agree but the range problem is really a weight/cost problem, because you could have loads of range if you carried a pile of batteries, but, IMHO, multiple batteries are far harder to manage than 5 or 1 litre petrol cans which weigh nothing when there's no energy in them.

 

[Kelpie]

My 2HP s stroke yamaha weighs about 12kg with a full tank. The 4 stroke Mariner 18kg.
12V trolling 60lb thrust motor weighs about 10kg with no battery. 50Ah LiFePO4 about 6kg.
Tests (which may be unscientific) suggest the petrol outboards will have about 80 or 90lb of thrust.
Whether you trust a cheap trolling motor from ebay to actually deliver its claimed thrust might be another question.

It's easy to measure 'bollard pull', but less easy to measure thrust at 3 knots, ISTM most small outboards are not fitted with props for optimum bollard pull, they are pitched to push a light boat at 8 or 10 knots? I've had small outboards which won't give full RPM if the boat's not moving. Particularly 2 strokes which can lack torque at low RPM.

Just to add some numbers to this, my 11ft hard tender can do about 5.5-6.5kt under elderly 3.5hp 2t, depending on load, and about 5kt with a 68lb Bison trolling motor. 4.5kt under oars with just myself and the cabin boy aboard, but only if I'm really going for it (I was attempting to overtake somebody using an outboard so was particularly motivated.)
I think the props on trolling motors are designed to give more torque and less speed, as they are for pushing bigger boats around very slowly. If you could get a different pitch of prop I'm sure it would be able to go a little faster.

 

[thinwater]

Maybe you should consider: the filth around oil extraction, the local polution when use, the noise, the carbon footprint of production, refining, distribution. Etc.
Electric is not perfect, but in the round it is a massive step in the right direction

This also depends on ...

• Coal extraction etc. The incremental power is fossil.
• Distribution losses.
• Charging hysteresis.
• Increased power use because the vehicle/vessel is heavier.
• Increased wear and tear on tires and roads, in the case of cars.

But yes, I wouldn't follow the thread unless I saw potential. I keep thinking I will go elelctric at the next opertunity, and then some practicality stops me. I just bought an (highly efficient) ICE car, in part because I travel as much as 500 miles in a day for work.

 

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

• , in the case of cars.

But yes, I wouldn't follow the thread unless I saw potential. I keep thinking I will go elelctric at the next opertunity, and then some practicality stops me. I just bought an (highly efficient) ICE car, in part because I travel as much as 500 miles in a day for work.

So that is roughly 10 hrs a day driving.
So you must be taking at least 3 breaks, so easily atchiveable in my mg4ev...

Anyway back to outboards...

My DIY 800w 36v lithium outboard has worked faultlessly this and last season on the 1NM round trip to my mooring. Which is more than I can say for the yamaha f2.5 that has sat in my garage for the last 2 years.

Plus no noise
no local pollution

 

[thinwater]

So that is roughly 10 hrs a day driving.
So you must be taking at least 3 breaks, so easily atchiveable in my mg4ev...

Anyway back to outboards...

My DIY 800w 36v lithium outboard has worked faultlessly this and last season on the 1NM round trip to my mooring. Which is more than I can say for the yamaha f2.5 that has sat in my garage for the last 2 years.

Plus no noise
no local pollution

a. You assume fast charging stations are available at the correct points on the route. Not at this time, not in rural areas (and the US has a LOT more rural than the UK).
b. No, I probably won't take two long breaks. I like to get were I'm going with some work time left when I get there. This also assumes the breaks will come at meal time, which is not likely.
c. $56,000 vs. $28,000 for an equivalent quality ICE car. Exactly double.

But a very cool car for many purposes. I like it. Maybe next time, when the price is more in-line, fast-charging more common, and range matters less to me.

And that brings us back to outboards. I will very likely go elelctric on my next dinghy motor. With the addition of another solar panel (no free lunch!) I can charge it on the davits, which will be sweet. But for the mother ship, there is no elelctric option that meets my range requirements. I am also considering elelctric for my F-24 trimaran, which I day sail. It is unusual to motor more than 5-8 miles, and only 1-2 miles unless the wind really dies. Another good application.

 

[NickWilson1972]

I have had a Bison 55lb/ft electric outboard (£200) for the last 3 years and its very reliable. The only modification I made was put a thicker cables on it.

I use a stripped down Skipper 14 dinghy as a tender and the Bison will push this along at 4kts. In comparison my Marine 3.5Hp will do 6.5 kts.

I use an eco worthy 100ah as a battery (£240 currently)