The RNLI are not publishing their accounts??

[JumbleDuck]

What are you inferring? They are not a company, but a charity, so their reporting timeframe is different. It is right that governors should know first.

As I understand it, governors aren't actually part of the governance structure of the RNLI: they are people who donate £120 per annum and get invited to a meeting in return. Very worthy, of course, but the title is smoke and mirrors.

 

[Sybarite]

Nothing sinister in this at all as post #11 explains. (I was just about to write much the same myself, but duncan beat me to it)

Once again displaying your ignorance for all to see!

I think that you will find that most large organizations publish their accounts before the AGM. Especially when they have been cleared by the auditors. It leads me to wonder why not this year when generally you could get hold of their accounts sort of April May time in previous years.
I see that you don't hold back in attacking me. Par for the course - but perhaps there are certain fields where as a qualified accountant I know a little bit more than you.

 

[Sybarite]

Very shortly we'll move on to why the Shannon class lifeboat isn't fit for purpose, and how as an alternative you could launch a French lifeboat off a beach in any weather conditions using a travel hoist.

I never said it wasn't fit. It's just two or three times more expensive that it should be. 43' Shannon = £2.2million; 60' SNSM AWB = £1.1million. Usually bigger boats cost more. Especially when they are more efficient.

 

[Daydream believer]

Sybarite's claim is that as a charity they do not use funds efficiently for their intended remit; not sure jealously comes into it.

The jealous bit comes in when one breaks down in French waters & gets a heafty bill for the tow, but in UK waters there is a good chance that the RNLI will be on hand to give aid freely & readily.
As for the efficient use of funds; the forum has debated that for many years. One can always find faults in an organisation the size of the RNLI & there are points on both sides of the argument. I do not think anything would be gained by opening that debate further. It would only delight Sybarite in his apparent quest to creat ill feeling against the RNLI.

 

[Vicarage]

I think that you will find that most large organizations publish their accounts before the AGM. Especially when they have been cleared by the auditors. It leads me to wonder why not this year when generally you could get hold of their accounts sort of April May time in previous years.
I see that you don't hold back in attacking me. Par for the course - but perhaps there are certain fields where as a qualified accountant I know a little bit more than you.

very few charities do this - in fact it would be illegal for most to publish accounts before they've been formally approved by the membership at an AGM

 

[Tranona]

I think that you will find that most large organizations publish their accounts before the AGM. Especially when they have been cleared by the auditors. It leads me to wonder why not this year when generally you could get hold of their accounts sort of April May time in previous years.
I see that you don't hold back in attacking me. Par for the course - but perhaps there are certain fields where as a qualified accountant I know a little bit more than you.

Well you only pop up here to attack the RNLI for supposed sins without thinking through whether there is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Why do you think they have something to hide? and from whom?

You have had the explanation. Being a qualified accountant does preclude you from using common sense and seeking an explanation rather than making assumptions. You c an wonder all you like, but why not do a bit of research first.

 

[ZBM2]

very few charities do this - in fact it would be illegal for most to publish accounts before they've been formally approved by the membership at an AGM

Really, why would that be then?

'Members' are not trustees or similar.

 

[Sybarite]

Well you only pop up here to attack the RNLI for supposed sins without thinking through whether there is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Why do you think they have something to hide? and from whom?

You have had the explanation. Being a qualified accountant does preclude you from using common sense and seeking an explanation rather than making assumptions. You c an wonder all you like, but why not do a bit of research first.

I think you will find that I have researched this more than most. There have been various statements about reductions in staff numbers and I suspect that there will have been a marked reduction in revenues, thus exposing the fragility of their business model. Bringing the construction of the lifeboats in-house (after building a £23m facility to house it) was an aberrant management decision.

The Shannon may be well built but its design is much less efficient than the new generation French boats - 60' awb has the same engines as the smaller 43' Shannon but has the same top speed and much greater range at top speed : 350 miles against 250: that says something about efficiency of dessign. Moreover measurement of the vertical movements in significant seas shows that the pantocrene hull of the French boat has a much easier passage resulting in higher sustained speed and enhanced fuel efficiency.

I also had a look at their RIBs. I took a sample of some 20 similar sized boats and the most expensive one that I could find was less than half the price of the Atlantic 85.

I have had quite a bit of financial management experience in difficult times. As Financial Controller of the largest British group in France at the time, the Crédit National noted that we had the best financial management results within the whole automotive sector in France.

 

[Sybarite]

The jealous bit comes in when one breaks down in French waters & gets a heafty bill for the tow, but in UK waters there is a good chance that the RNLI will be on hand to give aid freely & readily.
As for the efficient use of funds; the forum has debated that for many years. One can always find faults in an organisation the size of the RNLI & there are points on both sides of the argument. I do not think anything would be gained by opening that debate further. It would only delight Sybarite in his apparent quest to creat ill feeling against the RNLI.

French tows are strictly at cost price. In the UK the RNLI have been paid in advance; look at their reserves.

It's not ill feeling that I want to create but to alert people as to where their money is really going. The little old lady supposes I amagine that when she donates she is helping tp provide lifeboats whereas for as long as I have been monitoring the situation the direct spend on boats has usually been in the range of 7% - 9% of income, a figure which corresponds roughly with the pension contributions.

 

[Sybarite]

doubled

 

[Tanqueray]

Perhaps the RNLI are changing their account publishing system to follow the EU model...................................

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Don,t do anything illegal but very clever how they spend other peoples money with incredible arrogance + own brand of social engineering .pick motive org too wil help alot.shame good people help others on water . Nothing will change stop giving and rely on yourself .

 

[sarabande]

The more an organisation purports to be a charity and reliant upon voluntary fund giving and daily operation (with the exception of the perm office and tech staff) the more it is justifiable to hold up the strategic fundraising and tactical disbursement of those funds (and their consequent investments) to the spotlight.

It is very difficult to compare and contrast the RNLI with the maritime rescue services in other countries as the funding models and operational paradigms and controls are very different.

What they all share in common, however, is the need to operate their rescue craft as effectively and efficiently as possible, and it is easy to suppose that there is a range of optimum designs to cope with the very varied operational conditions around Europe and the UK. Understandably, given the emotional attachment that each nation has to maritime rescue, there is a strong imperative to keep a 'national' design process rather than have an international 'catalogue' of designs made with the best naval architects and crew input. The tendency would then be , for reasons of cost effectiveness, to put building those craft into a single engineering facility, which would raise questions as to where, and also about resilience of production.


Sybarite's "little old lady" really should have clarity about the effectiveness of the RNLI operations in making her will , but as big donations and legacies often seem to have emotional foundations that is a point which the funding chuggers in the RNLI prefer to remain as it is.

 

[Juan Twothree]

I think you will find that I have researched this more than most. There have been various statements about reductions in staff numbers and I suspect that there will have been a marked reduction in revenues, thus exposing the fragility of their business model. Bringing the construction of the lifeboats in-house (after building a £23m facility to house it) was an aberrant management decision.

There were very sound reasons for building the ALC. Historically there had been lots of problems over the years with the quality and consistency of the building and refit work in some boatyards, and the staff time involved in overseeing that work. Bringing it in house was an eminently sensible decision.

You can call into question various other decisions the RNLI has made over the years (and you invariably do), but the ALC has been very successful.

 

[Juan Twothree]

The Shannon may be well built but its design is much less efficient than the new generation French boats - 60' awb has the same engines as the smaller 43' Shannon but has the same top speed and much greater range at top speed : 350 miles against 250: that says something about efficiency of dessign. Moreover measurement of the vertical movements in significant seas shows that the pantocrene hull of the French boat has a much easier passage resulting in higher sustained speed and enhanced fuel efficiency.

I also had a look at their RIBs. I took a sample of some 20 similar sized boats and the most expensive one that I could find was less than half the price of the Atlantic 85.

That's not really research though, is it?

Have you ever actually been to sea on a Shannon or an Atlantic 85? Taken the controls? Carried out a rescue in extreme weather conditions? Used the nav kit on board to locate a casualty vessel?

You might be a qualified accountant, but I'm a qualified lifeboatman.

 

[Tranona]

I think you will find that I have researched this more than most. There have been various statements about reductions in staff numbers and I suspect that there will have been a marked reduction in revenues, thus exposing the fragility of their business model. Bringing the construction of the lifeboats in-house (after building a £23m facility to house it) was an aberrant management decision.

The Shannon may be well built but its design is much less efficient than the new generation French boats - 60' awb has the same engines as the smaller 43' Shannon but has the same top speed and much greater range at top speed : 350 miles against 250: that says something about efficiency of dessign. Moreover measurement of the vertical movements in significant seas shows that the pantocrene hull of the French boat has a much easier passage resulting in higher sustained speed and enhanced fuel efficiency.

I also had a look at their RIBs. I took a sample of some 20 similar sized boats and the most expensive one that I could find was less than half the price of the Atlantic 85.

I have had quite a bit of financial management experience in difficult times. As Financial Controller of the largest British group in France at the time, the Crédit National noted that we had the best financial management results within the whole automotive sector in France.

Your post was specifically about the 2020 accounts where you said that they had "something to hide". Nonsense - you are just looking for anything to have a go at the RNLI. You have the explanation - your question is answered so there is nothing more for you to say on the matter.

And yes they have had a reduction in income - just like every other charity in the UK in these difficult times and no doubt are taking steps to adjust to the new financial environment.

Does not stop them from fulfilling their life saving role rescuing migrants in the middle of the channel who are only there because of the abject failure of the French government in controlling its border.

As for the other matters, fail to see how just because sometime in the past you were a bean counter in another organisation totally unconnected with the operation of life saving services in the UK qualifies you to pontificate about boat design and operation. If you are ever on the receiving end of their services (as I was year before last) you will be grateful that the superb crew have the benefit of the very best available in terms of equipment.

 

[JumbleDuck]

That's not really research though, is it?

Have you ever actually been to sea on a Shannon or an Atlantic 85? Taken the controls? Carried out a rescue in extreme weather conditions? Used the nav kit on board to locate a casualty vessel?

You might be a qualified accountant, but I'm a qualified lifeboatman.

Have you tried an SNSM boat?

 

[JumbleDuck]

And yes they have had a reduction in income - just like every other charity in the UK in these difficult times and no doubt are taking steps to adjust to the new financial environment.

Since the RNLI's main source of income is legacies, I'd have thought 150,000+ excess deaths would give them quite a boost.

 

[MAGTRAD]

From a personal point of view, I don't mind how they're financed as long as when I call them they turn up in my hour of need!!

 

[Sybarite]

There were very sound reasons for building the ALC. Historically there had been lots of problems over the years with the quality and consistency of the building and refit work in some boatyards, and the staff time involved in overseeing that work. Bringing it in house was an eminently sensible decision.

You can call into question various other decisions the RNLI has made over the years (and you invariably do), but the ALC has been very successful.

Define "successful".

The SNSM use an independent architect and at least two different yards to build their boats. They don't put all their eggs in one basket. In addition the design is applied to rescue and pilot boats all over the world. A pilotage company working in the Thames estuary announced annual fuel savings of over £50k per year per boat when they adopted the pantocarene boats.

I have watched many videos of both the Shannon and the French boat heading into waves. It is fundamentally clear that the French boat has a smoother passage.
I believe it took 13 years from inception to commission for the Shannon. Thirteen years of development costs need to get rolled up somewhere. That included 3 years to redesign the hull.

The French boat's equivalence (inception to commission) was a little over 3 years.