Thepipdoc
Well-Known Member
Isn't this sort of sweed a vegetable?this is the wrong thread to seek advice on sweed
The Raggie Motto "Power gives way to sail"
- Thread starter DAKA
- Start date
Capt Cautious
Well-Known Member
Right of way
There really is no such thing as "right of way". The colregs place a requirement upon a particular vessel to take action, and the other vessel to maintain its course and speed (this is not quite as cut and dried as it seems). However - there is NOTHING in the colregs which says one vessel can blithely ignore another up to the point of collision. There is always a point at which BOTH vessels must take action to avoid collision. The oft misunderstood terms of the "responsibilities between vessels", and "not to impede" are poorly interpreted by most people on the water - and not understood at all by the majority of leisure sailors, who are equally bound to them whatever their mode of transport.
The overriding rule is Rule 2 - which should be taught to all, and is, yet again, seldom understood. Seamanship.
CC
There really is no such thing as "right of way". The colregs place a requirement upon a particular vessel to take action, and the other vessel to maintain its course and speed (this is not quite as cut and dried as it seems). However - there is NOTHING in the colregs which says one vessel can blithely ignore another up to the point of collision. There is always a point at which BOTH vessels must take action to avoid collision. The oft misunderstood terms of the "responsibilities between vessels", and "not to impede" are poorly interpreted by most people on the water - and not understood at all by the majority of leisure sailors, who are equally bound to them whatever their mode of transport.
The overriding rule is Rule 2 - which should be taught to all, and is, yet again, seldom understood. Seamanship.
CC
yesod
Well-Known Member
I think it is quite clear that most of them don't know of the 10 knot limit a 1000 yards off shore in most of the eastern Solent.
applies to the raggies too and a fair few of the race boats regularly break it - so what goes around comes around i guess....
DAKA
Well-Known Member
There is a risk of this thread becoming serious
You are right of course but any preaching on this thread will be wasted.
In my opinion the sailing boat has a duty to act and remove itself from the collision zone well before the ship will even notice him !
A sailing Yacht making 5 knots is on a collision course with a ship at 20 knots.Time of collision 0100 hrs
Taking a safety zone of 1 mile drawn as a red circle you can see the Yacht gets to point Y at 0048 hours and needs to tack in order to avoid being at the impact 12 minutes later.
The ship is still at point S and 4 miles away from danger and doesn't need to alter course until 0057 hrs, almost 10 minutes after the yacht has started to clear the area.
Of course the raggies will suggest the ship should preempt this, but the sailing boat is a small intermittent radar bleep, the ship does not even know it has a sail never mind using it for sole propulsion.
Scale could be changed, guard ring made smaller to 1/4 mile but same principle applies.
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bedouin
Well-Known Member
If you want a serious answer - I disagree.There is a risk of this thread becoming serious
You are right of course but any preaching on this thread will be wasted.
In my opinion the sailing boat has a duty to act and remove itself from the collision zone well before the ship will even notice him !
A sailing Yacht making 5 knots is on a collision course with a ship at 20 knots.Time of collision 0100 hrs
Taking a safety zone of 1 mile drawn as a red circle you can see the Yacht gets to point Y at 0048 hours and needs to tack in order to avoid being at the impact 12 minutes later.
The ship is still at point S and 4 miles away from danger and doesn't need to alter course until 0057 hrs, almost 10 minutes after the yacht has started to clear the area.
Of course the raggies will suggest the ship should preempt this, but the sailing boat is a small intermittent radar bleep, the ship does not even know it has a sail never mind using it for sole propulsion.
Scale could be changed, guard ring made smaller to 1/4 mile but same principle applies.
The sailing vessel is stand on vessel so required to maintain course and speed. The correct action by the ship would be a small alteration to port to pass astern of the sailing vessel.
The problem is that any action by the sailing boat other than standing on would make collision more likely if the ship took the correct action required of it by colregs.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
At some point ( I have chosen 1NM but the same applies if you use 1/2 nm) it becomes unsafe for the sailing boat to maintain course and speed and the sailing boat is under a clear duty NOT TO STAND ON.
The same duty to avoid the collision also applies to the ship however the ship does not have to alter course until 10 minutes after the sailing boats duty to avoid the collision.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
The DUTY of the sailing boat to alter course only happens when the ship can no longer avoid collision, so by definition cannot be 10 minutes before would have to alter course.
The sailing boat is required to stand on until it is clear that the ship is not going to change course.
In practice on a sailing boat without radar it is very hard to tell whether the ship will pass close ahead, pass close behind or somewhere inbetween.
Personally if I could still see red at somewhere around 1NM I would turn 90 to port
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Well I agree the text theory (you made one petty error, the stand on vessel does not have to wait until its clear that it is too late for the giveway boat to avoid the collision, that is to allow for an emergency port to port, the stand on boat can make a judgement much sooner and choose not to stand on into the 1nm red zone ) , and I also recognise how dangerous it is for the few who are daft enough to sail into that 1 nm red circle.
I think we both agree the practical advice is pretty much as per my post, the actual reality of the situation , the sailing boat alters course before the ship has to.
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bedouin
Well-Known Member
I don't think I would alter that early - if it were within say 1M that is only 3 mins from point of closest approach - I think it would probably be too late for the ship to alter course then.
But in practice what really matters is the aspect of the ship, while you can only see red you are fine, and if he alters course it should move pretty rapidly from red to green.
awol
Well-Known Member
At 3 minutes to go the ship is 1 mile away. A 180 degree turn gives a miss of half a mile. Throughout this scenario it is assumed that the professional, qualified mariners on the ship are ignoring Rules 5 and 8.
However this is nothing to do with sail v power. Swap the boats round so that the slow one is stand on whether sail or mobo and the same maths applies.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Personally I prefer a 90 rather than 180
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Agreed, as a mobo I already agree standing on in the red zone is not very sensible, I think some experienced sailors also agree, its just the desk sailors and the ones that dont get out the River Solent very often that disagree and risk becoming another MIA.
ukmctc
Well-Known Member
I always say "safety first", and it works for me, maybe that might work for stinkpots too.
awol
Well-Known Member
I don't know with whom you are agreeing. The 5kt stand-on vessel can ensure a 0.5 mile CPA by changing course when the ship is entering your "red zone", i.e. when the slow boat is 0.25 mile (3 minutes) from the centre. This seems perfectly consistent with the IRPCS and my tolerance for proximity to shipping. If 1 mile is your preferred "miss" then a course change when the ship is 2 miles from CPA (6 minutes) will suffice. I can't imagine anyone actually thinking in these terms but my point is that 12 minutes is a little early for panic and may be when the ship starts its 15 degree turn to move the CPA by more than a mile - "positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship" in his mind, at least, then not standing on will put the slow vessel into worse danger.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
You did this one to death last time you posted it Pete. 
The trouble is that colregs don't come into play until there is a risk of collision which is open to interpretation - it isn't unknown for that interpretation to be changed by some people to keep the argument going either...
The trouble is that colregs don't come into play until there is a risk of collision which is open to interpretation - it isn't unknown for that interpretation to be changed by some people to keep the argument going either...
awol
Well-Known Member
You did this one to death last time you posted it Pete.
Qui, moi?
DAKA
Well-Known Member
You did this one to death last time you posted it Pete.
It hadnt been my intention to start a serious debate on this thread, it sort of evolved when some took the humour seriously.
I'll let it go
Happy safe sailing to all
Tidewaiter2
Well-Known Member
Never mind Daka, ColRegs, it's a raggie obssesion...
....when we see those walls of steel thundering down Channel onto us at 12-30 kts, and the Condor coming up behind at 36kts, and a big Brittany crossing in front at 26kts, and we are flat out at 6kts, sphincters twitching at a radar and AIS full of targets converging on us, then the fog rolls in....
We wish we'd bought a nice, fast, Hardy or Nelson or taken up Golf instead!
It hadnt been my intention to start a serious debate on this thread, it sort of evolved when some took the humour seriously.
I'll let it go
Happy safe sailing to all
....when we see those walls of steel thundering down Channel onto us at 12-30 kts, and the Condor coming up behind at 36kts, and a big Brittany crossing in front at 26kts, and we are flat out at 6kts, sphincters twitching at a radar and AIS full of targets converging on us, then the fog rolls in....
We wish we'd bought a nice, fast, Hardy or Nelson or taken up Golf instead!
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
It hadnt been my intention to start a serious debate on this thread, it sort of evolved when some took the humour seriously.
I'll let it go
Happy safe sailing to all
Some of us know you better...
Watch out in the new year, I get my RIB so will be hunting you down if you venture out in the Solent.
Happy Christmas