The Queen nb

[Bergman]

Reisagree

A point about the 20M figure so often quoted by the Russians

That number includes the number of civilians killed by the Russians themselves, particularly in the Ukraine where the German army was welcomed as liberators from Stalins oppression. Obviously there are no accurate figures but most estimates centre on 10M deaths at the hands of red army, NKVD etc.

A little quoted fact about Russia and WW2 or the Great Patriotic War is that even at the lowest ebb of the red army there were more Russian, or more correctly Soviet troops employed to contain and control the population than were facing the Germans.

Perhaps if it is the apolgy season then a more appropriate cause for apology would be for the Russians to apologise for the continued enslavement of former German POWs for so many years after the end of WW2 the last was released I believe in 1955, and some 95% of those taken prisoner died in captivity.

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[Bergman]

Re: Me?

Destroy the edifice of the EU!

Would I do such a thing?

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[EME]

Reisagree

10m / 15 m / 20 m ? I think the point was the hardship and losses that the Russian/Soviets suffered during WW2 and the incredible contribution they made to the destruction of the evil Third Reich.

Easy for us to glorify 60 years on (and become amateur strategists) and I'm very glad that those kind of statistics are not currently quoted for any 'modern' conflict.

The one that gets me is the accepted number od deaths by Stalingrad defenders and citizens which is generally accepted at 1,000,000, I haven't checked but memory says that is around 6,500 deaths per day over a five month period ..... so what was she apologising for ?

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>I am WHAT I say I am</font color=blue>

 

[Bergman]

Re:agree

No argument with what you say

What I tried to point out was that the two regimes were equally repulsive.

The thing that sticks in my mind about Stalingrad was Zuchov's order when the defenders asked to be relieved, "fight and die" - when he had at least 6 divisions available but wanted the German army to lose more men before he counter attacked. Even an amateur strategist like me isn't that cynical.

Certainly not as cynical as the Red army delaying its advance on Warsaw to allow the SS to finish off, in the most brutal way, the Jews in the ghetto.

No future in swapping atrocities - Stalin, Hitler both evil and the world is a better place without them.


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[penfold]

Re: The Queen/Tony Blair nb

"With 20/20 hindsight clearly Hitler should have invaded UK in spring 1941. It is most probable that he would have succeeded despite heavy casualties. Whether the Americans declared war on him or not would then of being irrelevant, they could not have physically intervened."

Er, the Germans had not a snowball's chance in hell of achieving this. There are many long treatises on this subject, in print and <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm>online</A>, so there is no point in me duplicating their efforts. Suffice to say, they did not even have the ability to carry out an administrative landing, let alone an assault landing. Then there's the question of whether mister schicklegruber (sic) would actually have agreed to it in preference to stabbing Uncle Joe in the back.

cheers,
David

<hr width=100% size=1>I? I am Kaptain Kaos, and this is my faithful companion, Kato. Say hello Kato! Been a cop long?

 

[Guest]

Reisagree

Hmmm, I know I'm coming to this post a month or two late, but I just noticed it and wanted to put the record straight. The estimate of 10 million-odd Russians (actually mostly Ukrainians) who died as a result of starvation and repression is actually the Western estimate of the number who died BEFORE the war started. It is therefore ADDITIONAL to the 20million number. Stalinist repressions and deliberate starvation tactics were largely suspended during the war.

And the 20 million number quoted - I'm not sure where that has come from, but the official Soviet estimate for the number of Soviet citizens who died in the war was about 26 million. If I remember correctly, about 7 million of these are supposed to be serving soldiers, and the remaining 19-odd million were citizens and partisans.

Finally, while it is true that about 90% of German prisoners of war taken at Stalingrad, for example, died in capitivity, I have also seen an estimate that approx. 95% of Soviet military prisoners of war held by the Germans died in capitivity. Such was the nature of the war on that front.

The German army was undoubtedly defeated from a military point of view overwhelmingly by the actions on the Eastern Front - I have not come across any source that seriously doubts that. Churchill for example, at the end of the war made a speech referring to the contributions of the various allies, said something to the effect of "the guts of the German Army were ripped out by the Russians on the Eastern Front" (not the exact words, just quoting from memory). Clearly, viewing the war as a whole, events like the Battle of the Atlantic, the bombing of Germany in the West, and the defeat of Japan at the hands of the Americans were also vitally important events. But ultimately Germany was defeated in the East.

Hope that helps to clarify.

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