The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[JumbleDuck]

As a qualified Plastic Chemist could I just explain that "plastic" can be used as a noun or an adjective and both have somewhat different meanings.

Perhaps Mr Swain would find this - https://www.thoughtco.com/thermoplastic-vs-thermoset-resins-820405 0 useful to clear up his evidence confusion between plastic (noun), plastic (adjective) and thermoplastic (noun or adjective).

 

[bbg]

As a qualified Plastic Chemist could I just explain that "plastic" can be used as a noun or an adjective and both have somewhat different meanings.

The "P" in "GRP" is a word being used in a noun configuration .... although whether that word is "plastic" or whether it is a different word being used plastically (whoops .... an adverb slipped in somehow) is anyone's guess.

Richard

Exactly. And none of that prevents steel from rusting ...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Exactly. And none of that prevents steel from rusting ...

Beats me why anyone would use steel when aluminium is so obviously better.

Years ago there was an Australian company who were going to use explosive forming to make aluminium hulls. The idea was to weld up a fairly angular, hard-chine version, lower it into a concrete mould in the ground, fill it with water and set off an explosive charge which expanded the hull to fit the mould. I believe they made one boat, called "Gelignite" but the process seems to have fallen into abeyance.

 

[Brent Swain]

Why should steel boats survive a storm better? I have never heard of a storm damaging a hull of any material.



Since the number of steel yachts is negligible it is hardly surprising that the overwhelming majority of composite ones have most of the accidents. You might as well claim that four wheeled cars are fundamentally unsafe because they have more accidents than three-wheelers.

Read "Once is Enough "by Miles Smeeton. HIs wheelhouse was washed off , so he built a much stronger one, which was also washed off. Knox Johnston had his cabin side damaged which meant a lot of bilge pumping the rest of the way around. Read " Storm Passage" by Webb Chiles. Now read "The Long Way" by Bernard Moitessier, and compare the structural problems of the difference in doing the voyage in steel.
You say no boats were damaged in the Fastnet race? Better tell the survivors that . They will be relieved to hear that, especially when you tell them that their sunken boats never sank, and you tell them where they are moored .
You say no plastic boat was ever damaged by a storm?
You definitely live in fantasy world!

 

[Brent Swain]

So what makes a small steel boat unlikely to roll in the conditions they faced in the 79 Fastnet? And it's a special steel you have that floats when the boat is full of water.

Of course it would be really interesting to see your design for a competitive steel half-tonner. The steel would be so thin it would be a half-tinner.

With proper watertight hatches and no holes, they wouldn't get any water inside. Bernard put his masts in the water several times, and still had dry dust in his bilges. A sistership, Pygmalion ,pounded on a Spanish lee shore for days, in up to 80 knots of wind, and the bilges stayed dry.

 

[Brent Swain]

Beats me why anyone would use steel when aluminium is so obviously better.

Years ago there was an Australian company who were going to use explosive forming to make aluminium hulls. The idea was to weld up a fairly angular, hard-chine version, lower it into a concrete mould in the ground, fill it with water and set off an explosive charge which expanded the hull to fit the mould. I believe they made one boat, called "Gelignite" but the process seems to have fallen into abeyance.

Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel, before you put it together. Then you need a much more expensive indoor building site ,or only work on dry windless days for welding. Welding equipment for aluminium, is far more expensive to buy and operate. It is extremely easy to get a bad weld in aluminium . Steel is far more forgiving.

So many criticisms of steel are done with the grossly inaccurate assumption that all cruisers have unlimited money. Acting as if they did, and believing advice based on that assumption, has sunk far too many cruising dreams.

Yes, the Gelignite 35 was interesting. Experimenting with aluminium dinghys is tempting. Propane and oxygen would be cheaper, for blasting.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why should steel boats survive a storm better? I have never heard of a storm damaging a hull of any material.

Read "Once is Enough "by Miles Smeeton. HIs wheelhouse was washed off , so he built a much stronger one, which was also washed off. Knox Johnston had his cabin side damaged which meant a lot of bilge pumping the rest of the way around. Read " Storm Passage" by Webb Chiles. Now read "The Long Way" by Bernard Moitessier, and compare the structural problems of the difference in doing the voyage in steel.

I chose my words carefully.

You say no boats were damaged in the Fastnet race? ... You say no plastic boat was ever damaged by a storm?

No, I did not say either of those things.

 

[Brent Swain]

So what makes a small steel boat unlikely to roll in the conditions they faced in the 79 Fastnet? And it's a special steel you have that floats when the boat is full of water.

Of course it would be really interesting to see your design for a competitive steel half-tonner. The steel would be so thin it would be a half-tinner.

I advocate steel for cruisers, which are usually heavily loaded. When did I ever advocate steel for racing ( Vanity) boats ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel, before you put it together.

Meh. Still a tiny fraction of the cost of the boat, and for a slightly greater cost of construction you get an incomparably superior hull.

So many criticisms of steel are done with the grossly inaccurate assumption that all cruisers have unlimited money.

Homemade steel certain does seem to attract people at the unrealistically cheap end of the market, which is probably why so few ever get finished.

 

[Brent Swain]

Nope. Just pointing out that your wonder material also sinks.

You really don't get it. Both materials have a place in boat building. So does wood. So does aluminium. No one material is "best". I get that you personally choose rust buckets over GRP. Your choice. I would probably also choose steel if I went high-latitude cruising. But if I were to go long-distance cruising in temperate or tropical climates, my first choice would be GRP. And it would be the right choice.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it would be the right choice, as long as you don't hit anything, and relying on luck, just happens to work out for you. The minute things go very wrong, it instantly becomes a bad choice!
There are many situations where steel survives where plastic wouldn't , like the 16 days one of my 36 footers survived 16 days on a Baja Lee shore ,in up to 12 ft surf, which would break up a plastic boat in minutes, or Bernnard's boat surviving a plastic boat beating itself to pieces on her ,on a Cabo lee shore, or the Sleavin family disaster, or the many examples I have already given, which would have broken up a plastic boat in minutes, if not seconds.
Yes, all materials have a place in boat building. Plastic makes the best dinghies,ice boxes ,kayaks, and racing boats. aluminium the best hatches and masts, wood the best interiors, and steel the best hulls for long distance cruising , and back yard boat building.

 

[Brent Swain]

Meh. Still a tiny fraction of the cost of the boat, and for a slightly greater cost of construction you get an incomparably superior hull.{Quote}

The aluminium RCMP catamarans here are looking like Swiss cheese in many places, due to extreme corrosion problems.The oxide being white, instead of the far more visible red of steel, doesn't mean its not happening. Tell any outboard mechanic that aluminium doesn't corrode. That should get a good laugh out of them!



Homemade steel certain does seem to attract people at the unrealistically cheap end of the market, which is probably why so few ever get finished.

Most of mine get finished by their original owners, thanks largely to my building methods reducing shell building time by 90%. Wouldn't be the case, if they used 1950's building methods taking ten times as long ,or if they paid for a new one at $250K for hull and deck, then spent far more years paying the bank, including interest.

 

[lpdsn]

I advocate steel for cruisers, which are usually heavily loaded. When did I ever advocate steel for racing ( Vanity) boats ?

You highlighted the Fastnet Race of 1979 in your arguments. It was clearly a pointless point if you were only talking about cruisers, so why did you make it?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Brent, you keep citing two disasters or incidents in yachting to support your claims. In your opinion, the Sleavins boat would have survived the collision if it had been steel and your boast of how a steel yacht survived being beaten up when run ashore on a reef, and how a GRP boat would have been destroyed. You then always say, “..and many more examples”.

Can you reference some please? You’ve been asked this before and have failed to respond.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Most of mine get finished by their original owners, thanks largely to my building methods reducing shell building time by 90%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law

 

[RichardS]

Brent, you keep citing two disasters or incidents in yachting to support your claims. In your opinion, the Sleavins boat would have survived the collision if it had been steel and your boast of how a steel yacht survived being beaten up when run ashore on a reef, and how a GRP boat would have been destroyed. You then always say, “..and many more examples”.

Can you reference some please? You’ve been asked this before and have failed to respond.

I've not followed this thread but surely it's self-evident that in a major impact situation a steel hulled boat is likely to fare better than a GRP hulled boat.

However, it's an irrelevant argument since the point of sailing is to avoid any impact situations ..... and most of us manage to do that for our entire sailing careers.

It would be similar to saying that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer for the same reason. However, the point of driving is not to hit anything and driving the Hummer for the 99.9% of the time when one is not crashing would be a pain in the arse. (setting aside the crumple zone distraction).

Richard

 

[lpdsn]

It would be similar to saying that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer for the same reason. However, the point of driving is not to hit anything and driving the Hummer for the 99.9% of the time when one is not crashing would be a pain in the arse. (setting aside the crumple zone distraction).

Richard

Ah, but if you couldn't drive...

 

[john_morris_uk]

I've not followed this thread but surely it's self-evident that in a major impact situation a steel hulled boat is likely to fare better than a GRP hulled boat.

However, it's an irrelevant argument since the point of sailing is to avoid any impact situations ..... and most of us manage to do that for our entire sailing careers.

It would be similar to saying that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer for the same reason. However, the point of driving is not to hit anything and driving the Hummer for the 99.9% of the time when one is not crashing would be a pain in the arse. (setting aside the crumple zone distraction).

Richard

You may be right, but Brent keeps making unsubstantiated claims about how (in his words) ‘Plastic’ boats are vulnerable and how many are lost at sea. The reality is that although it’s self evident that steel can be stronger than GRP, diminishingly small numbers of GRP boats are lost due to collision with ships or semi submerged debris. Brent’s claims are hyperbole designed to play on the emotions. He’s even been shown video of a GRP boat being sailed multiple times at full speed onto rocks, but according to him GRP boats are death traps that only stay afloat because most of them rarely leave the marina.

I think there’s a place for steel hulls and a place for crude backyard shoestring boat contraction, but it’s not for everyone and those of us who prefer things a little better fettled and finished are making a valid choice. Brent refuses to acknowledge this, and suggests we aren’t ‘proper sailors’. The sad truth is he has little idea of the depth of experience and sailing miles he’s addressing his remarks to in these forums and is merely irritating people nowadays with his fixations and inability to see other viewpoints.

 

[robertj]

I feel Brent you’re totally wrong in your assumptions. Look at how many ships are in fact built in grp that goes to prove your theories are wrong!

 

[JomsViking]

Read " Storm Passage" by Webb Chiles. Now read "The Long Way" by Bernard Moitessier, and compare the structural problems of the difference in doing the voyage in steel.

Yet Webb is still sailing in GRP boats (and wrote about how he thought the Ericsson 37 was likely badly designed wrt the keel)

 

[JomsViking]

Nope. Just pointing out that your wonder material also sinks.

You really don't get it. Both materials have a place in boat building. So does wood. So does aluminium. No one material is "best". I get that you personally choose rust buckets over GRP. Your choice. I would probably also choose steel if I went high-latitude cruising. But if I were to go long-distance cruising in temperate or tropical climates, my first choice would be GRP. And it would be the right choice.

Yes, it would be the right choice, as long as you don't hit anything, and relying on luck, just happens to work out for you. The minute things go very wrong, it instantly becomes a bad choice!
There are many situations where steel survives where plastic wouldn't , like the 16 days one of my 36 footers survived 16 days on a Baja Lee shore ,in up to 12 ft surf, which would break up a plastic boat in minutes, or Bernnard's boat surviving a plastic boat beating itself to pieces on her ,on a Cabo lee shore, or the Sleavin family disaster, or the many examples I have already given, which would have broken up a plastic boat in minutes, if not seconds.
Yes, all materials have a place in boat building. Plastic makes the best dinghies,ice boxes ,kayaks, and racing boats. aluminium the best hatches and masts, wood the best interiors, and steel the best hulls for long distance cruising , and back yard boat building.

Joshua was basically a caved in hull full of sand and water, while a GRP Bristol Channel Cutter and an Olsson 40 were virtually unscathed according to Lyn and Larry Pardeys article on the subject. Their conclusion was that the better built boats fared better no matter the hull material IIRC. But the main conclusion was that ppl were anchoring too close and NOT leaving when it got ugly.