The "pros" and "cons" of an electric galley vs gas galley?

[Kelpie]

Do the pan clamps get hot from all the inductive magic moon waves flying around?

I was worried about that but no, I can't say they do. The induction zone is quite small. Annoying when you use a big pan of course.

 

[geem]

Next thing someone will be telling me not to try and heat up a tin can, or boil an egg in a microwave. Oddly enough there are some meals I do entirely with a microwave to avoid firing up the primus or alcohol burners.

Another poster did mention a 2 burner alcohol stove, and it's good news that a born again Origo 3000 is back in production in Germany. It's called the Spritzcooker 3000. I did think about buying one, or the 1500 single burner version, BUT found a French alcohol burner (It's a real good classic from Napoleons days), for only 20 quid, plus a fiver for gold paint, as it was a tad on the rusty side!

Gas hobs might not impact the global greenhouse effect, but gas explosions sure do, as does the need to install all that gas sniffing, auto shut off and bomb proof vented and drained gas bomb locker. I've been a tad too close to both petrol vapour and Propane gas explosions on boats, so I'm not going to use either methods of trying to kill myself or my passengers.

Assume Butane as a cooking gas. The low limit for combustion is 1.6% in air. The upper limit it 8.4%. You need to have you gas leak percentage in air between these figures or you won't get a big bang. What you need is a really bad gas leak then you are totally safe ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Yesterday I brought to boil 1 liter of water in a 1200W jug in 3 minutes. (I hope my maths are OK here (not allowing for losses))
1200W at 240V = 5 amps or
5 X 240/12 = 100amps at 12V
Therefore in 3 minutes I used 100amps/20 = 5Ah

As you say, not allowing for losses. Simpler to allow for losses and use the rule of thumb guide, dived the AC watts by 10 to get DC amps. Your 1200W kettle will draw about 120A from the batteries. 6ah for the 3min.

Surely that is not a lot when my battery bank will be 560Ah?

560ah is your stored power, of which you wouldn't look to use more than 50% and the 560ah will decrease over time. Stored power is more relevant to how long you can survive without any power generation. More importantly is how you replace/keep up with what you are using. If you fall short of the amount of power you use, no matter how big the battery bank, your batteries will go flat.

 

[Zing]

I’ve gone all electric recently at home from gas and am so pleased with it, I have no hesitation to change to electric on the boat. I am part electric anyway. A combi microwave, toaster, slow cooker, breadmaker and electric kettle. I’ll probably make the change this year. I’d love to ditch the gas. Heavy, heats the boat and makes it damp, a PITA to fill and change tanks, a maintenance issue, an explosion risk and it doesn’t cook as well.

 

[coopec]

There’s more to cooking than raising the temperature of food. Efficiency is nice but I’d rather have tasty meals. Gas hobs on boats have effectively zero impact on global gas usage. Granted it can be hard to source but in my opinion worth it.

I often read comments on this forum about mildew on their yachts. This is no doubt due in some part to the lousy UK weather you have but burning Propane for cooking produces a surprising amount of water during the combustion process.

"If you're using an un-vented or "vent-free" propane appliance like a catalytic heater, "blue flame" heater, or certain instant water heaters, your appliance is adding 1.6 pounds of moisture into your space for every pound of propane burned".

How much water does burning propane produce? - Tiny Wood Stove

 

[coopec]

What do you mean by a suitcase generator ??

Hope you are not trying to blow up your boat with anything that drinks petrol, or does not have on overboard exhaust system.

Yes unfortunately a suitcase generator does drink petrol but so does my outboard so I'll have to carry petrol. (But not to worry, I'll store it well out of the way down in the bilges) ? (NOTE My genset is the Gentrax 3.5kW)

 

[coopec]

As you say, not allowing for losses. Simpler to allow for losses and use the rule of thumb guide, dived the AC watts by 10 to get DC amps. Your 1200W kettle will draw about 120A from the batteries. 6ah for the 3min.



560ah is your stored power, of which you wouldn't look to use more than 50% and the 560ah will decrease over time. Stored power is more relevant to how long you can survive without any power generation. More importantly is how you replace/keep up with what you are using. If you fall short of the amount of power you use, no matter how big the battery bank, your batteries will go flat.

Did you read comment #4? (I think I covered your point there)
What do you do when you run out of LPG ?

 

[William_H]

Hello Clive
At our club EFYC there is a 30ft Farr set up entirely for electric living. He claimed it has 1000w of solar on a gantry (I doubt it is that much) with electric induction cooker etc. he bought the boat as is and I can not comment on the success of the whole idea as I know he has not done much living on board. However I would agree that avoiding a gas installation will make your boat more safe and save on certification costs for the gas system. So yes go electric /solar with spirit stove back up. Yes it is a bit hard to avoid petrol storage. ol'will

 

[coopec]

Hello Clive
At our club EFYC there is a 30ft Farr set up entirely for electric living. He claimed it has 1000w of solar on a gantry (I doubt it is that much) with electric induction cooker etc. he bought the boat as is and I can not comment on the success of the whole idea as I know he has not done much living on board. However I would agree that avoiding a gas installation will make your boat more safe and save on certification costs for the gas system". So yes go electric /solar with spirit stove back up. Yes it is a bit hard to avoid petrol storage. ol'will

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yesterday I had the plumber here to install new basins and fittings in the shower and toilet. I asked him if he could do the LPG plumbing work in the yacht knowing he is a certified gas fitter. He declined saying he doesn't do yachts and wasn't sure of the requirements. I briefly thought I'd have a go at it myself but wondered what the insurance company would think of that

Now reading your comment "boat more safe and save on certification costs for the gas system" I think it would be best to wait until I get the yacht to the Two Rocks Marina (cue Paul/ PVB) and get a local certified gas fitter (for marine installations) to tackle the job. Is that the way to go? Anything else to consider?

In the back of my mind I had an inkling that a marina manager could refuse entry to yachts that did not have certification to prove the yacht complied with gas and electrical requirements and sure enough:

"The owner of a vessel using a DoT facility needs to provide proof of compliance with electrical and gas
requirements before pen or mooring licences are renewed or issued. Proof of appropriate Public liability third
party insurance is also required at this time and this booklet explains what you need to do to comply with these
requirements."

https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/marine/MAC_G_ElectGasInsurance.pdf

 

[William_H]

HI Clive
My only experience of gas is in the requirement for our club marina that a boat must have a certication for the gas system safety. This part of a program to ensure safety of all boats in the marina. (club insurance thing I imagine) therefor I imagine 2 rocks marina will also require same. Does this mean you are going gas? I would avoid if possible although of course many boats have gas. I would think a mix of spirit stove and electric might suffice for you. However much depends on your sailing style. I know you want to set up for long term self sufficient cruising. By contrast for my little boat I seem to to sunk into short sailing (racing) habit (not what I envisaged when I bought it) so have removed the single burner spirit stove and outboard. So at least no fire risk. So yes I would advocate you launch the boat and get some use out of it when with experience you will find what you really want. ol'will

 

[coopec]

HI Clive
My only experience of gas is in the requirement for our club marina that a boat must have a certication for the gas system safety. This part of a program to ensure safety of all boats in the marina. (club insurance thing I imagine) therefor I imagine 2 rocks marina will also require same. Does this mean you are going gas? I would avoid if possible although of course many boats have gas. I would think a mix of spirit stove and electric might suffice for you. However much depends on your sailing style. I know you want to set up for long term self sufficient cruising. By contrast for my little boat I seem to to sunk into short sailing (racing) habit (not what I envisaged when I bought it) so have removed the single burner spirit stove and outboard. So at least no fire risk. So yes I would advocate you launch the boat and get some use out of it when with experience you will find what you really want. ol'will

I'd rather not have gas and if I find I can do without it I'll ditch it. Maybe there's no hurry to plumb it up? Good thinking!

Just a further thought! If I don't install LPG gas the self-draining locker for the LPG bottles would make a perfect locker for the outboard petrol.

 

[Neeves]

Did you read comment #4? (I think I covered your point there)
What do you do when you run out of LPG ?

We carry 2 x 8kg cylinders, plus a little 1kg emergency one. After 20 years - we have not yet run out. We know the tare weight and know how much we have left. Admittedly we are not sailing round the world, non stop. Our primary requirement is fresh green vegetables and fresh fruit (to keep scurvy at bay ), so as long as we have fresh food stuff we are able to sit in splendid isolation - the fresh fruit and veg runs out long before the gas.

Now what is the alternative to fresh fruit and veg, Wombok cabbage soon gets boring. We can be self sufficient in protein, fish, crays - but not veg and to a lessor extent, fruit

There are factors other than power/fuel that dictate a return to civilisation if you want to live in the 21st Century.

For us gas is not the major determinant.

Jonathan

 

[coopec]

We carry 2 x 8kg cylinders, plus a little 1kg emergency one. After 20 years - we have not yet run out. We know the tare weight and know how much we have left. Admittedly we are not sailing round the world, non stop. Our primary requirement is fresh green vegetables and fresh fruit (to keep scurvy at bay ), so as long as we have fresh food stuff we are able to sit in splendid isolation - the fresh fruit and veg runs out long before the gas.

Now what is the alternative to fresh fruit and veg, Wombok cabbage soon gets boring. We can be self sufficient in protein, fish, crays - but not veg and to a lessor extent, fruit

There are factors other than power/fuel that dictate a return to civilisation if you want to live in the 21st Century.

For us gas is not the major determinant.

Jonathan

You are quite right in putting emphasis on diet. How many people are crook because they don't exercise or have a proper diet?
I know a number of circumnavigators/liveaboard yachtsmen who became ill (or died) well before their time. Coincidence? For that reason I have a largish fridge/freezer almost installed. (Freezer 5cu.ft, fridge 1.5cu.ft). It should be fairly economical as I have 5in. insulation all round.

 

[Neeves]

I'd rather not have gas and if I find I can do without it I'll ditch it. Maybe there's no hurry to plumb it up? Good thinking!

Just a further thought! If I don't install LPG gas the self-draining locker for the LPG bottles would make a perfect locker for the outboard petrol.

Our gas cylinder in use is in a dedicated self draining locker. The spare cylinder is in a custom cage attached to the transom of the bridge deck (being a cat its quite a large space). This latter cylinder would also connect to the transom located BBQ (we are in Oz, after all). Also being a cat we have a large bridge deck locker - you can almost live in it. it houses the diesel tank immediately forward of the mast, then storage, then the windlass that sits over the chain locker, also self draining to allow the chain to drip dry. Finally we have another locker just forward of the chain. All or these lockers are self draining and the petrol for outboard is kept in the one most forward, well away from the windlass.

We use gas to heat water, showers, it seems perverse to have to run an engine to 'make' hot water. If we were more economical we might use the heat from the sun to warm water in a black poly bag - but there are limits to dedication. Instant hot water is a pleasure in the depths of a Sydney winter. As I keep saying, its the 21st century, we are not camping and if we want the granddaughters to sailing with us we need to accomodate the desires of those born into this century for whom 2 showers a day is a birthright.

Compromises, compromises.

Jonathan

 

[coopec]

Well I've got my Daughter, S-I-L and kids coming up for the w/e so I spent a day cleaning up the galley and shower/toilet (and small washing machine).

I am going to heat my water in a Duetto HWS. I know people from the UK would be aghast as they seem to go for calorifers on their auxiliary motor. I don't want to start the Perkins up all the time so I will have to rely on the Gentrax 3.5kWinverter generator. BUT I'm working on a solar powered HWS! I've got all the parts including pump and 17W solar panel. One day I'm going to put it all together

 

[Neeves]

Now - you either really need to slum it or carry spare bedlinen etc or you need a washing machine. We have a washing machine, caravan type, sort of like half an old fashioned twin tub. Works well - loves water. Its not the power that is the issue but having oodles of fresh water.

Desalinator.

We tend to use all these 'things' in a marina or when motoring - desalinator goes on, we do the laundry, we charge all the electronics (have the fridge and freezer at max cold (remember to turn it back to normal when engine goes off ). Don't worry - you will get used to it.

We collect the waste water from the machine and use it to give the deck a freshwater rinse. - The reality is, its a bit like a microwave - conditions determine these devices are only used in a marina - so carry lots of spare bedlinen. Tell family who visit - bring bedlinen, fresh green vegetables and more of whatever your favourite tipple might be - its has an amazing soothing effect at times.

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Well I've got my Daughter, S-I-L and kids coming up for the w/e so I spent a day cleaning up the galley and shower/toilet (and small washing machine).

I am going to heat my water in a Duetto HWS. I know people from the UK would be aghast as they seem to go for calorifers on their auxiliary motor. I don't want to start the Perkins up all the time so I will have to rely on the Gentrax 3.5kWinverter generator. BUT I'm working on a solar powered HWS! I've got all the parts including pump and 17W solar panel. One day I'm going to put it all together

View attachment 122719

View attachment 122720

We heat hot water from our 720w solar bank that supplies the domestic batteries. Once the batteries have gone to float we can use surplus solar capacity. We have a 27 litre vertical calorifier. The vertical part is important. It can be heated by the engine but it also has a 1200w 220v immersion heater. We can heat hot water from the diesel generator. We do this if we are running the generator to make water from our 220v RO system. Otherwise we use solar.
The 1200w immersion, heater if fed from a 110v source, becomes a 300w immersion heater. This is quite doable for 720w of solar. We use a cheap 110v inverter with a changeover switch and a 1hr timer to supply the immersion heater. A couple of hours of running in the afternoon is giving us sufficient water for two showers and washing up each day. The vertical calorifier is vital for this set up since it allows heating of just the top of the tank. Stratification is your friend.
If you have a large horizontal calorifier, this won't work unless you have a lot of solar and the ability to feed the immersion heater at 220w simply because the sunny part of the day is not long enough to heat all the hot water in the calorifier at reduced output.

 

[coopec]

We heat hot water from our 720w solar bank that supplies the domestic batteries. Once the batteries have gone to float we can use surplus solar capacity. We have a 27 litre vertical calorifier. The vertical part is important. It can be heated by the engine but it also has a 1200w 220v immersion heater. We can heat hot water from the diesel generator. We do this if we are running the generator to make water from our 220v RO system. Otherwise we use solar.
The 1200w immersion, heater if fed from a 110v source, becomes a 300w immersion heater. This is quite doable for 720w of solar. We use a cheap 110v inverter with a changeover switch and a 1hr timer to supply the immersion heater. A couple of hours of running in the afternoon is giving us sufficient water for two showers and washing up each day. The vertical calorifier is vital for this set up since it allows heating of just the top of the tank. Stratification is your friend.
If you have a large horizontal calorifier, this won't work unless you have a lot of solar and the ability to feed the immersion heater at 220w simply because the sunny part of the day is not long enough to heat all the hot water in the calorifier at reduced output.

That sounds like a very good system. I'll have to work out how I can increase the solar panel area but there is no way I can get to anything like 720W. The Duetto only holds about ten liters (enough for two showers they claim) so I'd have to build a separate insulated storage tank (not hard)
From what the other guys are saying I'll have to look at l ion batteries but it would not be a priority at this stage.

Thanks for that

 

[pvb]

560ah is your stored power, of which you wouldn't look to use more than 50% and the 560ah will decrease over time. Stored power is more relevant to how long you can survive without any power generation. More importantly is how you replace/keep up with what you are using. If you fall short of the amount of power you use, no matter how big the battery bank, your batteries will go flat.

Also worth noting that heavy discharge reduces the battery's theoretical capacity. At 120A discharge, his 560Ah bank only has an effective capacity of 215Ah and will be 50% discharged in less than an hour. Using a kettle for a few minutes won't be a big problem, but sustained heavy discharge will.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Did you read comment #4? (I think I covered your point there)
What do you do when you run out of LPG ?

I posted some accurate figures for working out how much equipment uses when connected to an inverter, if you don't want to use those figures (which are well established, well proven figures), but would rather use incorrect data, feel free to do so. Once again, you attempt to turn a perfectly reasonable post, providing you with some useful information, into an argument.

Did i mention LPG ?