The ideal blue water yacht

[Neil_Y]

A Renault 4 once did a better job of the Atlas mountains, Sahara and Morocco in an adventure where a Landrover struggled

 

[skipmac]

Those of us who own Twisters like to think of it as more of a challenge; as we stand there gripping the tiller with white knuckles, our knees knocking, and the blood running down our chins from bitten lips.

Reminds me of a story about the full keel boat I owned. Bought it from a Brit who had been keeping it at a small marina/boat yard in south Florida. Took the boat for a shakedown cruise to the Bahams for few weeks before doing some work on the boat in preparation for a longer Caribbean cruise. Since I knew the yard where I bought it I made an appointment to get hauled back at the place where I bought it. By that time I was fairly familiar with the boat and what a bear it was to maneuver in tight spots.

So I'm motoring up the river towards the yard. As I approached I saw a couple of the liveaboards on the outer docks staring at the boat. Suddenly they jumped off their boat and ran around the docks calling to neighbors who all started running out on deck. As I pulled into the marina I saw about a dozen people standing on the docks and on their boats with fenders and boat hooks, all staring intently at me. Didn't pay too much attention as I was planning my move to the haulout slip which was accomplished with nary a bump nor scratch. After I tied up I looked around to see everyone still watching but now somewhat befuddled. Finally one local walked by and I asked him what was going on. He looked at me then laughed.

Turns out the previous owner, every time he took the boat out managed to smash something or someone. Local nickname was Captain Crunch. So when they saw the boat coming back all assumed the PO was at the wheel and destruction was soon to follow.

 

[Neil_Y]

Very happy Bavaria owner (or was) here who found it a better boat than a Sweden 38, and a Rival 38 and a few other 'cruisers' It was a 1991 variety so a little different to newer versions, but it was strong, well behaved, fast and well balanced. In a storm that saw people getting off a Nicholson 55 we sat out nights hove to and felt rested. We did 10,000Nm in 10 or 11 months and I'd choose the same boat again, unless I could afford the Roger Martin boat I linked to before.

 

[pvb]

May be so but think of all the creditors who possibly lost money when they filed for bankruptcy

Bavaria filed for "self-administration" whilst it looked for a new investor. Production continued, as order books were good. Employees and suppliers were paid. A new investor came along. Your fake scare stories are almost as bad as coopec's.

 

[pvb]

The suppliers and ex employers who lost money and jobs

Bavaria continued in production, so suppliers and employees were taken care of. If you want doom-and-gloom boatbuilder stories, look at the Discovery Yachts fiasco.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If you knowing buy a boat second hand that was made by a boat who has gone insolvent that is OK but buying a boat from a manufacturer that has gone insolvent just after you paid the final payment and loose and guarantee would be very disappointing.

Then there is any suppliers who were owned money by the manufacturer who went insolvent could be devastating to the supplier let alone the employees of the manufacturer loosing their job.

Restarting production could help but still there will be people who have lost due to no fault of their own.




The suppliers and ex employers who lost money and jobs



I have not pick out Bavaria owners or any owners of any boat or other supplier of goods.

I actually feel sorry for any boat/equipment owner who loses due to the insolvency of any manufacturer.

I have lost numerous times when a customer when insolvent and failed to pay their account so may ne more sensitive than those who haven't lost due to insolvency

What has any of this to do with "The ideal Blue Water Yacht" ?

Nothing.

 

[pvb]

What has any of this to do with "The ideal Blue Water Yacht" ?

Nothing.

No, it's all to do with coopec's distorted ideas and knocking Bavarias because I've got one! Rogershaw has just jumped on the colonials' bandwagon to support coopec, who thankfully is probably asleep now, dreaming of the excitement - many years hence - of finally dragging his boat out of his garden and introducing it to water.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Bavaria filed for "self-administration" whilst it looked for a new investor. Production continued, as order books were good. Employees and suppliers were paid. A new investor came along. Your fake scare stories are almost as bad as coopec's.

What is it they say, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" ?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Bavaria filed for "self-administration" whilst it looked for a new investor. Production continued, as order books were good. Employees and suppliers were paid. A new investor came along. Your fake scare stories are almost as bad as coopec's.

In the case of self-administration, the executive management is under the supervision of a liquidator appointed by the insolvency court. ... Usually, the executive management of the company is supported for the duration of the proceedings by an external restructuring consultant.

Still under the control of the insolvency court otherwise the management would be trading while insolvent and so has protected its self from being forced o stop trading by a creditor. This is normally by agreement of creditors who hope to get more than just a distribution from the sale of assets.

If no new investor could be found it would result in full liquidation. The best of a bad situation.

Here it's called Business rescue where Business rescue practitioners are charged to run the company pending normally further investment or liquidation

Yes I agree the Discovery Yachts was a fiasco.

 

[Laminar Flow]

You gotta love the thread drifts on this forum; like herding a bunch of kids with full-blown ADHD.

I also find the level of generalization unhelpful, regardless which camp one is in; I'm in neither.

I think the difficulty maneuvering long keels is highly over blown. I have sailed on several over longer distances and in a variety of conditions, some of which I'm quite happy not to repeat, and I also currently own one.
I'm definitely in the go-whith-what-you-got camp and I'm also very much the kind of person to fix something I've got, rather than to toss it and move on.

Probably the biggest reason for a long keel performing poorly in tight places is that in this type of hull auxiliary power was always considered something of an afterthought. To really muck things up, it is common to cut a nasty big hole through the rudder where it is needed most to re-direct the prop wash when docking. Long keel MFV do not cut holes into their unattached, vertical rudders They do not appear to have much problem maneuvering either and I have often seen them backing up as well.

The problem with backing up , IMHO, has more to do with the short distance between turning point and rudder; the cutaway forefoot and a forward raking rudder make this situation worse. My current long keel backs up nicely and also steers in reverse, since I faired in the deadwood, profiled and enlarged the rudder. We have spent a lot of time in Holland and also in the Baltic where it is common to back into the booths and even when most others would moor bow first (Baltic) we would reverse in since my wife refuses to rapell down our 2m high bow. We never had any problems doing that, regardless of weather, nor did we sink anything in the process.

Tripping over one's forefoot. Hmm... I have sleigh ridden a long keel down some rather steep waves in 50kts ++ winds at well over 10kts boat speed, until we came to our senses and hove to. Not a sign of tripping. This boat had a remarkably insensitive, hydraulic steering with 10 turns, hard to hard.
I have sailed another across the Pacific and back. This one, a Robert Clark, rolled like a drunken pig through 100 degr down wind, under spinnaker. She was a real handful to keep on track, but she never broached, nor did she do any tripping. Top speed was 12kts on a 35' DWL. We rode out two nasty storms on the way back and my biggest complaint was the lack of buoyancy in her pretty tail.
With our current boat we have run downwind in over thirty knots of wind, under spinnaker and in a steep, quartering sea at or above hull speeds (continuously). We did this for ten hours under autopilot. The rolling was very slight, the boat ran like on rails and the pilot corrected only intermittently and with no more than 3 degr rudder angle, even when the seas would catch us under the quarter. No tripping, not a bit and that forefoot don't come any deeper.


The suitability of a boat for long distance cruising needs to be looked at on a case for case basis. Generic statements that fins are unsuitable or long keels are slow as molasses or don't float or whatever, are neither informed, informative or helpful.

 

[Wansworth]

manuvering long keelers is a matter of patience and at the right moment action and desicion, heavish boats with long keel sit like duck in the water,drifting with the current or wind,and with judicious use of the rudder and prop wash amazing pirru ets can be achieved .

 

[rotrax]

I think Jean Socrates proved that a production boat can get along OK, did'nt she.

Three times.

 

[ip485]

Maybe to get back on track here are my thoughts.

Lots of chat about Bavarias and of course nothing wrong with them so lets start with Bavaria and there ilk.

For me (and that doesnt mean everyone) blue water means living aboard for long periods and I make no bones, I want to do it in comfort. That doesnt mean you must do it in comfort, its just my preference. My impression on the whole is Bavaria's and there ilk are designed for short term cruising, of course the flotilla type set up and this sort of thing. Sleeping in a typical coffin berth is fine, but personally I find it claustrophobic. Craming in the extra berths is fine, but I prefer some extra room for storage because I like lots of "things" on the boat. A Bav is eery bit robust enough, but I like something a little heavier and more solid so it creeks less and will be more comfortable in rough weather. I especially want all the mod cons. be a big house bank, down to lots of sockets and a properly functioning galley and nav. station.

These are therefore some of the things that would make good blue water for me. They are all luxuries and its not possible for everyone, but it is the ideal, which I think was the question. In short I want as much luxury and comfort as I can, as much storage as possible, something that will look after me when it is cold and wet at 2 am in the morning and I would far rather be in my bunk, and something when I am at anchor for a few weeks a want a cold beer, or a frozen cocktail I know the boat will deliver. Thats it, not a lot to ask for!

I chose a largish IP and I am lucky enough to tick most of the boxes. Of course it is yet another compromise, and there are more than a few compromises compared with other alternatives, but, on balance I am happy with the compromises I have made, and I look forward to every minute on board as much, possibly more, than being home, so it is my floating apartment, and snug and comfy even when it is blowing hard and the rain lashing down and most other people dont want to be on their boats because they are cold, or damp, or lack all the mod cons we get accustom to so they stay home.

Go look at a typical marina in the winter and see which boats people regulalry overnight on - it is not a bad astart, if you are happy to spend a long week end on board in a filthy English winter you are likely happy with living on the boat, now just check that it will also make a good sea boat and you can mange it in most conditions and you are there.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I think Jean Socrates proved that a production boat can get along OK, did'nt she.

Three times.

Najad 385, longish fin, skeg hung rudder, not even all that light in displacement, even unloaded ... reckless. Good on her.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Maybe to get back on track here are my thoughts.

Lots of chat about Bavarias and of course nothing wrong with them so lets start with Bavaria and there ilk.

For me (and that doesnt mean everyone) blue water means living aboard for long periods and I make no bones, I want to do it in comfort. That doesnt mean you must do it in comfort, its just my preference. My impression on the whole is Bavaria's and there ilk are designed for short term cruising, of course the flotilla type set up and this sort of thing. Sleeping in a typical coffin berth is fine, but personally I find it claustrophobic. Craming in the extra berths is fine, but I prefer some extra room for storage because I like lots of "things" on the boat. A Bav is eery bit robust enough, but I like something a little heavier and more solid so it creeks less and will be more comfortable in rough weather. I especially want all the mod cons. be a big house bank, down to lots of sockets and a properly functioning galley and nav. station.

These are therefore some of the things that would make good blue water for me. They are all luxuries and its not possible for everyone, but it is the ideal, which I think was the question. In short I want as much luxury and comfort as I can, as much storage as possible, something that will look after me when it is cold and wet at 2 am in the morning and I would far rather be in my bunk, and something when I am at anchor for a few weeks a want a cold beer, or a frozen cocktail I know the boat will deliver. Thats it, not a lot to ask for!

I chose a largish IP and I am lucky enough to tick most of the boxes. Of course it is yet another compromise, and there are more than a few compromises compared with other alternatives, but, on balance I am happy with the compromises I have made, and I look forward to every minute on board as much, possibly more, than being home, so it is my floating apartment, and snug and comfy even when it is blowing hard and the rain lashing down and most other people dont want to be on their boats because they are cold, or damp, or lack all the mod cons we get accustom to so they stay home.

Go look at a typical marina in the winter and see which boats people regulalry overnight on - it is not a bad astart, if you are happy to spend a long week end on board in a filthy English winter you are likely happy with living on the boat, now just check that it will also make a good sea boat and you can mange it in most conditions and you are there.

While I appreciate the generosity of space that an IP offers, sleeping at dockside and at sea are two different things entirely. So is harbour hopping along the coast and blue water cruising, which, as the name suggests, entails days or weeks, even, crossing the open sea.

I must say, I do enjoy a chilled Chablis as much as the next fellow, it is, however, not exactly high on my list of seaworthy attributes.
On comfort: much any boat can and has, benefited from the installation of a cabin heater, even the poor Bavarias.

I would be much more concerned whether my chosen conveyance has the capability and margin of displacement to carry all the comfort I wish to become accustomed to, as well as the tools and supplies necessary to keep it all going and beyond that: the vital ingredients for the G&T to anesthetize the pain from having to fix everything in exotic locations along the way.

 

[Wansworth]

Looking a

While I appreciate the generosity of space that an IP offers, sleeping at dockside and at sea are two different things entirely. So is harbour hopping along the coast and blue water cruising, which, as the name suggests, entails days or weeks, even, crossing the open sea.

I must say, I do enjoy a chilled Chablis as much as the next fellow, it is, however, not exactly high on my list of seaworthy attributes.
On comfort: much any boat can and has, benefited from the installation of a cabin heater, even the poor Bavarias.

I would be much more concerned whether my chosen conveyance has the capability and margin of displacement to carry all the comfort I wish to become accustomed to, as well as the tools and supplies necessary to keep it all going and beyond that: the vital ingredients for the G&T to anesthetize the pain from having to fix everything in exotic locations along the way.

t the little picture of your boat it looks like a lot of thought has gone into the rig.

 

[ip485]

While I appreciate the generosity of space that an IP offers, sleeping at dockside and at sea are two different things entirely. So is harbour hopping along the coast and blue water cruising, which, as the name suggests, entails days or weeks, even, crossing the open sea.

I must say, I do enjoy a chilled Chablis as much as the next fellow, it is, however, not exactly high on my list of seaworthy attributes.
On comfort: much any boat can and has, benefited from the installation of a cabin heater, even the poor Bavarias.

I would be much more concerned whether my chosen conveyance has the capability and margin of displacement to carry all the comfort I wish to become accustomed to, as well as the tools and supplies necessary to keep it all going and beyond that: the vital ingredients for the G&T to anesthetize the pain from having to fix everything in exotic locations along the way.

I agree, a blue water yacht isnt a blue water yacht unless it is at home for long ocean passages.

However, be in no doubt if you talk to those who have and do, you spend a surprisingly little amount of time on long passages. If you want a rush across the pond a stock Bavaria will do you well. If want the same sail over and then six months in the Indies you will be spending lots of quality time on the hook and in marinas.

So you are right it needs to deal with the passage making well, and all the storage and you will appreciate all the mod cons less on passage and more when you get there, but this is the difference between the rush over on the Arc and few weeks in the Indies and ship the boat back, or six months there before moving onto to the ditch if you havent fallen out with your partner before because it has all become an unpleasant lving space.

Every true long term cruising boat I have come across in its on way has been made as comfortable as it possibly can.

 

[FlyingGoose]

For what it's worth I'll toss in my tupence. I have owned full keel boats and fin keeled boats and made long, offshore passages in both. Would not have another full keel boat for various reasons.

The biggest reasons, they tend to be slow and don't point well at all. I know gentlemen don't sail to windward but occasionally even a gentleman gets caught out and has to beat home. Besides, from Florida most destinations are a long way, dead upwind. The few that are downwind it's upwind to get back home.

Then there is some evidence that a full length keel with no cutaway forward can trip over the keel when running downwind in heavy seas and broach.

Finally full keel boats are a dog to maneuver in tight spaces.

Listen to these wise words ,
I have a large keeled heavy displacement boat from the 70s
She does not go to wind AT all
She slows
And a tractor at three point turns
But she is nice in heavy weather ,
And I love her so there

 

[Laminar Flow]

Quote: " the little picture of your boat it looks like a lot of thought has gone into the rig. "

If obsession counts as thought, then yes, I suppose so.

This is not my favorite rig, but then I work with what I've got.

This is not the standard rig for her type. She now has more than twice (214%) the SA of the original design for atotal of 770 sqf or 71.6m2. The original model is, as designed and according to my calculations, not balanced, leading to excessive weather helm. The original owner and builder added a taller main mast and longer booms, which gave her a third more sail (still didn't balance, but better than original). I added the 6' (folding) bowsprit, stay sail, and new sails with full battens to maximize SA. Sa/Displ ratio now is 17.9, original is 8.6 (8 or less is a MoBo).
I had calculated her righting moment by timing the roll period and concluded I could carry the new SA up to about 20-22kts, this has proven to be correct.

On the wind she balances perfectly now. In 8 kts true wind speed we reach 6kts on a close reach (50-60 degr.) and close hauled, between 40 and 35 degr, she will do 4.8kts in 10kts true (flat water, of course). In 16-18kts we are easily at hull speed or above, 7.1kts, (definitely not flat water). We have, without too much fuss, sustained speeds of over 7.5kts for hours on end, with 7.8kts for longer bursts (N.B. flattish water, not surfing) . Top speed to date: 8.2kts.
My wife and I have an ongoing tally as to who can log the highest speed; to date she is winning.
Passage notes: Ijmuiden - Dieppe, 210 miles in 35hrs a 6kts average, though at times we were down to 1.8 kts SOG crawling around Cap Gris Nez.
6.8kts average, Dartmouth to Guernsey; slow start with spinnaker up, later reaching under full, plain sail at over 7.5kts.

We reef back to front, last up is the stay'sl - we have tried that in a F9.

Edit: attached quote.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Listen to these wise words ,
I have a large keeled heavy displacement boat from the 70s
She does not go to wind AT all
She slows
And a tractor at three point turns
But she is nice in heavy weather ,
And I love her so there

Which begs the question: how important is windward ability in a blue water boat? The whole point of trade wind sailing, after all, is to avoid that.