celandine
Active member
To satisfy a niggling curiosity, does anyone know the name of the British yacht that lost to the yacht 'America' in the first Americas Cup race in 1851?
Google doesn't seem to know.
Google doesn't seem to know.
The first Americas Cup - query.
- Thread starter celandine
- Start date
cawarra
Member
"Aurora" I seem to recall...Stand to be corrected though?
Woodlouse
New member
The original race was of an entire fleet of RYS yachts and the America. Some of the british boats had fast reputations and were expected to win but no individual boat lost the original cup.
celandine
Active member
Thanks. That would account for why no boat in particuar has gone down in history as the original loser; 'Aurora' being one of the fleet I presume.
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cawarra
Member
Yes, I think you are right. From what I recall, Aurora was the "first loser" behind America.
Leighb
Well-known member
To be pedantic that first race was of course NOT for the "America's Cup" It was AFAIK the "Queen's Cup" which was won by the US yacht America. It was only referred to as the "America's Cup" at the subsequent challenge race some years later.
Supposedly after Queen Victoria saw that the US yacht had won her trophy she enquired of the Commodore (Admiral??) of the RYS "Who was second?" he famously replied "Madam, there is no second!"
flaming
Well-known member
According to Wikkipedia....
n 22 August 1851, America raced against 15 yachts of the Royal Yacht Squadron in the Club's annual 53-nautical-mile (98 km) regatta around the Isle of Wight. America won, finishing 8 minutes ahead of the closest rival. Apocryphally, Queen Victoria, who was watching at the finish line, was reported to have asked who was second, the famous answer being: "Ah, Your Majesty, there is no second
n 22 August 1851, America raced against 15 yachts of the Royal Yacht Squadron in the Club's annual 53-nautical-mile (98 km) regatta around the Isle of Wight. America won, finishing 8 minutes ahead of the closest rival. Apocryphally, Queen Victoria, who was watching at the finish line, was reported to have asked who was second, the famous answer being: "Ah, Your Majesty, there is no second
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Also, its alleged the Brityots sailed their usual RTI course, around the Nab and the IOW. America, deliberately or unwittingly, missed out the Nab.
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slipknot
Member
'No soy secondo' as they said at Valencia.
TimBennet
New member
"Shortly after four o'clock, Greenwich Mean Time, a single sail appeared on the distant horizon.
In the afternoon quiet, disturbed only by a soft, dying breeze, the eyes of the royal party strained westward each vying to identify what most assuredly, ‘the first English yacht’.
Sails billowing, the yacht under scrutiny and as yet unidentified, carved a graceful arc through the water of the Solent, rounded the last mark and slid silently and triumphantly towards Cowes and her place in history.
At that moment the Queen, with that innate sense of portent fate bequeaths upon its leaders, leaned forward and whispered quietly in the ear of the Marquis of Anglesey who sat at her right, ‘Who is it in first place, my lord?’
In a halting voice the Marquis replied, ‘I'm sorry to report, Madam, it seems it is the yacht America.’
‘The yacht America’ asked the Queen, ‘Then who is in second?’ The Marquis, in a restrained voice filled with that profound respect an English gentleman reserves for his Queen, answered softly, ‘Madam, there is no second.’
It was the 100 Sovereigns Cup with 16 (or 15) RYS boats taking part.
18 yachts entered; 15 raced. Fernande, a 127 schooner built by William Camper at Gosport and owned by Major Francis Mountjoy Martyn, did not take her station in the two lines of yachts off the harbour entrance. Stella, a 39 ton cutter built by George & James Inman at Lymington in 1851 and owned by Richard Frankland Esq, and Titania, built by Robinson and Russell at Millwall in 1850, took their stations but did not start. The other competitors were:
Alarm 193 ton cutter, Thomas Inman, Lymington, 1830, owned Joseph Weld
Arrow 84 ton cutter, Inman 1821, owned Thomas Chamberlayne
Aurora 47 ton cutter, Michael Ratsey, Cowes, 1838, owned Thomas Le Marchant
Bacchante 80 ton cutter, Thomas and James Manlaws Wanhill, Poole, 1847, owned Benjamin Heywood Jones
Beatrice 117 ton schooner, Camper 1851, owned Sir Walter P Carew
Brilliant 393 ton schooner, John Rubie, Southampton, 1839, owned George Holland Ackers
Constance 136 ton schooner, built Joseph White, East Cowes, 1851, owned Marquis of Conyngham
Eclipse 50 ton cutter, Wanhill 1847, owned Henry Samuel Fearon
Freak 60 ton schooner, Wanhill 1849, owned William Curling Esq
Gipsy Queen 99 ton schooner, White 1848, owned Sir Henry Bold Hoghton
Ione 57 ton schooner, built White 1851, owned Almon Hill
Mona 56 ton cutter, built Richard Pinney, Poole, 1846, owned Lord Alfred Paget
Volante 48 ton cutter, built Harvey, Ipswich, 1851, owned J L Craigie
Wyvern 127 ton schooner, built Camper 1845, owned Duke of Marlborough
Most of the yachts were on the RYS List, but a few belonged to members of other clubs such as Henry Fearon who was a member of the Royal Western and the Royal St George. Volante’s owner belonged to the former and also to the Royal Thames and the Royal London. The owners of several of the yachts, even if members of the RYS, were also prominent in other clubs. The entrants for the race that day included the yachts of the Commodores of the Royal Victoria, the Royal Thames and the Royal St George and Vice Commodores of the Royal Victoria, Royal Welsh and Royal Mersey. So America was pitted against the yachts of many of the most prominent sailing men of the day.
In the afternoon quiet, disturbed only by a soft, dying breeze, the eyes of the royal party strained westward each vying to identify what most assuredly, ‘the first English yacht’.
Sails billowing, the yacht under scrutiny and as yet unidentified, carved a graceful arc through the water of the Solent, rounded the last mark and slid silently and triumphantly towards Cowes and her place in history.
At that moment the Queen, with that innate sense of portent fate bequeaths upon its leaders, leaned forward and whispered quietly in the ear of the Marquis of Anglesey who sat at her right, ‘Who is it in first place, my lord?’
In a halting voice the Marquis replied, ‘I'm sorry to report, Madam, it seems it is the yacht America.’
‘The yacht America’ asked the Queen, ‘Then who is in second?’ The Marquis, in a restrained voice filled with that profound respect an English gentleman reserves for his Queen, answered softly, ‘Madam, there is no second.’
It was the 100 Sovereigns Cup with 16 (or 15) RYS boats taking part.
18 yachts entered; 15 raced. Fernande, a 127 schooner built by William Camper at Gosport and owned by Major Francis Mountjoy Martyn, did not take her station in the two lines of yachts off the harbour entrance. Stella, a 39 ton cutter built by George & James Inman at Lymington in 1851 and owned by Richard Frankland Esq, and Titania, built by Robinson and Russell at Millwall in 1850, took their stations but did not start. The other competitors were:
Alarm 193 ton cutter, Thomas Inman, Lymington, 1830, owned Joseph Weld
Arrow 84 ton cutter, Inman 1821, owned Thomas Chamberlayne
Aurora 47 ton cutter, Michael Ratsey, Cowes, 1838, owned Thomas Le Marchant
Bacchante 80 ton cutter, Thomas and James Manlaws Wanhill, Poole, 1847, owned Benjamin Heywood Jones
Beatrice 117 ton schooner, Camper 1851, owned Sir Walter P Carew
Brilliant 393 ton schooner, John Rubie, Southampton, 1839, owned George Holland Ackers
Constance 136 ton schooner, built Joseph White, East Cowes, 1851, owned Marquis of Conyngham
Eclipse 50 ton cutter, Wanhill 1847, owned Henry Samuel Fearon
Freak 60 ton schooner, Wanhill 1849, owned William Curling Esq
Gipsy Queen 99 ton schooner, White 1848, owned Sir Henry Bold Hoghton
Ione 57 ton schooner, built White 1851, owned Almon Hill
Mona 56 ton cutter, built Richard Pinney, Poole, 1846, owned Lord Alfred Paget
Volante 48 ton cutter, built Harvey, Ipswich, 1851, owned J L Craigie
Wyvern 127 ton schooner, built Camper 1845, owned Duke of Marlborough
Most of the yachts were on the RYS List, but a few belonged to members of other clubs such as Henry Fearon who was a member of the Royal Western and the Royal St George. Volante’s owner belonged to the former and also to the Royal Thames and the Royal London. The owners of several of the yachts, even if members of the RYS, were also prominent in other clubs. The entrants for the race that day included the yachts of the Commodores of the Royal Victoria, the Royal Thames and the Royal St George and Vice Commodores of the Royal Victoria, Royal Welsh and Royal Mersey. So America was pitted against the yachts of many of the most prominent sailing men of the day.
armchairsailor
Active member
So the Marquis wasn't on his own boat (Mona)? It does rather explain his reticent comment though - he must have been gutted.
TimBennet
New member
No I think Mona was owned by his younger brother. The Marquis would have been the eldest.
Could be wrong.
Could be wrong.
Leighb
Well-known member
I think many yacht owners of that era would not be aboard when racing, they employed professional skippers and crew to do the job.
Woodlouse
New member
Indeed. Even today on many of the biggest and fastest the owners don't often race aboard.
TimBennet
New member
Really got any examples from now or the Victorian era?
My reading and experience would be quite the opposite. They may have paid skippers and crews, but are usually on board (except when called away on business affairs so they could pay for the whole thing).
Woodlouse
New member
Well, the finest example of the Victorian era would be Sir Thomas Lipton who rarely if ever set foot upon his sailing yachts.
These days a lot of the big classics still race without the owner on board a lot of the time and many of the other modern boats only have the owners onboard for the more prestigious events.
TimBennet
New member
Source please? That's certainly not the impression I have of reading about his life.
Woodlouse
New member
Temple to the Wind by Christopher Pastore mentions how little sailing he did. It's been a long time since I've read these books but I recall Enterprise to Endeavour by Ian Dear also mentioning owners that didn't sail, even with one anecdote of an owner who couldn't even recognise his boat.
armchairsailor
Active member
Probably a little like keeping racehorses....
