The collision between "Elbe no. 5" and m/v "Astrosprinter"

[Wansworth]

Came out of a lock into Amsterdam at night nearly crashed into a barge it hadn’t dawned on the skipper nor me that having lowered the steel mast right in front of the wheelhouse to traverse the canal the compass was not at its best,arror occure even with proffessionals

 

[Capt Popeye]

So do I, except for his final sentence:



The following is an extract from the report's conclusions (p.109) (My highlighting)
View attachment 136876

Well that simply looks like an irresponsible, foolish, completely avoidable collision by the sailing vessel. How much time do you need to avoid a container ship for heavens sake. I hope the skipper isn't responsible for people's lives anymore let alone causing damage and hassle/cost for both parties afterwards. I hope he doesn't drive on the roads around me.

Well dont want to go on about this , but when clearly , there is in the report , something that is not bourne out by the Video footage ; in the Video Footage it clearly shows the Sailng Boat set on a course to cross the bow of the Ship ; someone blows 4 on the Horn , at least twice , but the Ship is now bearing down onto the Sailng Boat with no possibility of avoiding some sort of collision .

Also the Report mentions that the Sailing Boat should have been on the right side of the Channel , so avoiding oncomming Ships ; well in the Video Dootage it would appear that the Sailing Boat is actually crossing the Oncomming Container Ship bows ; at close quarters ; which by any Seamanship is a NO NO NO

Appears that the Report is not actually Factual or Representative of the events that happened ?

 

[Poignard]

S

Well dont want to go on about this , but when clearly , there is in the report , something that is not bourne out by the Video footage ; in the Video Footage it clearly shows the Sailng Boat set on a course to cross the bow of the Ship ; someone blows 4 on the Horn , at least twice , but the Ship is now bearing down onto the Sailng Boat with no possibility of avoiding some sort of collision .

Also the Report mentions that the Sailing Boat should have been on the right side of the Channel , so avoiding oncomming Ships ; well in the Video Dootage it would appear that the Sailing Boat is actually crossing the Oncomming Container Ship bows ; at close quarters ; which by any Seamanship is a NO NO NO

Appears that the Report is not actually Factual or Representative of the events that happened ?

Sorry CP but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Kukri]

I should perhaps explain something.

In my first proper job, in the Seventies, I spent a lot of time in Hamburg, as I worked for the London solicitors for Bugsier-, Reederei- und Bergungs-Gesellschaft mbH & Co. KG*, the privately owned family business that operates most of the tugs in Hamburg and, in those days, owned the finest fleet of salvage tugs in the world, at a time when salvage was a real business. (Smit will disagree, but I worked for them too, and I’m right). That gave me a liking and respect for maritime Hamburg and it’s traditions and respect for the past that has endured to this day.

A friend of mine when I was in Hong Kong was the regional head of Norasia Line, the innovators behind much of modern container shipping and gave up his post to become head of the BSU. He’s long since retired as has the friend from P&O who became head of the MAIB.

One of my best friends is the Secretary of the Flensburg MuseumHarbour and I’ve spent some happy times on his English built gaff cutter.

In 2006 one of the ships that I’m responsible for was in collision in the Elbe with a P&OCL ship and one of their crew was killed. The incident was investigated by the BSU, the same people as this case; we were entirely to blame and their report was excellent. And I’ve investigated a few casualties in my time.

I may be seeing this through German eyes but it was a German collision.

* “Towage and Salvage, Limited”. They go back to the 1860’s and are in Hamburg shipping terms a “black” company (anti-Nazi, unlike the “brown” shipping companies. Indeed their relationship with the UK before during and after WW2 is quite interesting, but this isn’t the place for it).

 

[Birdseye]

What a strange report. On page 17 we are told that the Captain ordered "Hard to Port" and the navigation officer pushed the tiller to port causing the boat to turn "hard to starboard'. Nowhere in the remaining 98 pages can I see any further analysis of this. In the final analysis there is no mention.

He turned right instead of left. WHY?

115 pages of checking that the paperwork is in order seem to be more important!

The report says "Someone shouted "HARD TO PORT! Come around here,
come around here! HARD TO PORT!" The nautical officer jumped toward the tiller and
pushed it away. Other people in the vicinity, including passengers, grabbed hold of and
pushed the tiller to port, i.e. with the rudder acting to starboard – and the No5 ELBE
thus turned to starboard "

Sounds like chaos on board.

The report contains a lot of unnecessary and irrelevant detail. As you say, it seems that its more imprtant to be sure that "Alles in ordnung"

 

[Capt Popeye]

The report says "Someone shouted "HARD TO PORT! Come around here,
come around here! HARD TO PORT!" The nautical officer jumped toward the tiller and
pushed it away. Other people in the vicinity, including passengers, grabbed hold of and
pushed the tiller to port, i.e. with the rudder acting to starboard – and the No5 ELBE
thus turned to starboard "

Sounds like chaos on board.

The report contains a lot of unnecessary and irrelevant detail. As you say, it seems that its more imprtant to be sure that "Alles in ordnung"

Think that the Video of the last moments running up to the collision explain quite a lot ; the video captures the apparent panic by the Passengers plus someone , poss the Mate , sounding 4 blasts on the horn , twice , as the impending collision is taking place ; looks like the passengers pushing the Tiller 'to port' , thus placing the Saing Boat right if front of the approaching Ship ; thus the collision takes place ;
If the Tiller had been used to take the Sailing Boat to Port it just might have adverted a full on collision but an uncomfortable ride as both vessels scraped passed each other

 

[penfold]

There's a good reason why port and starboard helm orders mean what they mean rather than what they used to mean.

 

[Capt Popeye]

There's a good reason why port and starboard helm orders mean what they mean rather than what they used to mean.

Yes quite so , but maybe in future its a Comand that says /means 'turn to PORT , or STARBOARD , as in the direction that the Command wants the vessel to go towards ; Guess that Port or Starboard the helm /tiller is actually meaningless a Comand these days with Vessels with Wheel Steering and Tiller Steering about

 

[Capt Popeye]

Just found a Report on this Colision , and it reports that there were 43 passengers aboard the Sailng boat , plus the Boat s fitted out with modern communication and navigation equipment ; so was the Radio ON , Working , Turned Off , Faulty , ignoored by Captain ?

 

[R.Ems]

You need to get your crew 100% singing from the same hynm sheet about the format of helm orders, this was not the time for a philosophical discussion about it.
If subsequently, having got underway, an accident is caused by this confusion, the person who was meant to give the 'helm chat'
is at fault.

 

[Capt Popeye]

You need to get your crew 100% singing from the same hynm sheet about the format of helm orders, this was not the time for a philosophical discussion about it.
If subsequently, having got underway, an accident is caused by this confusion, the person who was meant to give the 'helm chat'
is at fault.

Yep quite so ; but I thought that there were only 2 crew , Master and Mate , the rest were people on a Jolly as pasengers , thinking that they were aboard a well run Jolly and Passenger Vessel , so run by safe Crew on a well practiced safe voyage !
If so them Passengers would not be expected to understand Helm or any other Commands

 

[Poignard]

Just found a Report on this Colision , and it reports that there were 43 passengers aboard the Sailng boat , plus the Boat s fitted out with modern communication and navigation equipment ; so was the Radio ON , Working , Turned Off , Faulty , ignoored by Captain ?

I am on a mobile and there is no WiFi here so I can't look up the report but I think it mentioned that the ship in front of Astro Sprinter had tried to call up the Elbe to complain about its erratic manoeuvring but had received no answer.

I think the report paints a picture of a rapid descent into chaos on board the Elbe, leading to the collision with the Astro Sprinter.

Much as I sympathise with his desperate plight, I really don't see how the Elbe's skipper can avoid responsibility for the collision and, as far as I know, and to his credit, he has not tried to.

A sad end to a distinguished seafaring career.

 

[Wansworth]

Sailed as mate with an elderly skipper and there where more than afew momments when he had lost the plot and slight course alteration had to be made

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Sailed as mate with an elderly skipper and there where more than afew momments when he had lost the plot and slight course alteration had to be made

You mean the chart had fallen of the table ( lost the plot see what I did there) and given your other recent post slightly worrying ?

 

[Wansworth]

You mean the chart had fallen of the table ( lost the plot see what I did there) and given your other recent post slightly worrying ?

Oh no we had Radar?